Hello, and welcome to The Back Page, A Video Games Podcast. I’m Samuel Roberts, and I’m joined by Matthew Castle. Hello. Matthew, what have you been up to lately? Don’t you, haven’t you got your vaccine books now for the coming months? I managed to luck out and get the vaccine center in the center of Bath. What? I didn’t even know there was one. I have to go to the fucking race course up the hill. Yeah, apparently there’s a hidden vaccine center in Superdrug. What the fuck? What is this, like fucking Pokemon centers or something? Yeah, like I was really struggling with it. And then someone said, you can luck out and get this Superdrug. And it’s right at the bottom of the list because it’s kind of the list bugs out. So, yeah, I saw that racehorse one, the racehorse, the race course one, and thought no chance. Like I’d die walking up that hill and then the whole vaccine would be for nothing. Yeah, I’m kind of probably going to get a cab, but I’m there thinking, surely the cab’s going back and forth with employees, sorry, employees, people getting the vaccines. It’s got to be like a super spreader event waiting to happen, but I’ll figure out. I do like the idea as well of like the racehorses are somehow brought in to like administer the vaccines. Is that what you were suggesting there? Yeah, they kick the plunger down on the syringe. Yeah, they’re not very precise, but God damn it, they like to contribute. So Matthew, this episode, you and I decided that we would have like a kind of silly break from all of our quite dense video games discussions over the last few weeks. We’ve had a couple of guests in. For the next episode actually features a great special guest and a lot of discussion about our experiences of E3. I think people will really like that. It’s quite nice to have some like absolute fucking nonsense in between. And that’s very much what this is. So this is the studio draft episode of The Back Page. I may have called it something like, if you can buy five game studios, what would it be in the sort of text to scripture? Because I haven’t actually figured out what I’m gonna call it yet. But me and Matthew, we’ve discussed this before. We’re big fans of the podcast, The Big Picture. We like that podcast because it plays loose and fast with its own format, partly because the pandemic wiped out like the theatrical calendar. So as a film podcast, they had to work out on the fly what they were gonna do. But that’s very much inspired our like loose format approach to podcasting where some episodes will be a list, some episodes will be about a new game, et cetera, et cetera. We like to mix it up. And they do this thing called The Draft, which American listeners will understand more than British listeners. Basically, they do it as you pick a year for film and the three hosts, they each pick like their favorite films from different genres. And basically like they compete to see who gets the best list because people take it in turns. If someone picks that one film first, you can’t pick it and therefore you lose out and have to kind of re-strategize. So, taking that format, we thought we’d ask like if me and Matthew were new video games publishers, right, let’s say we had like these crazy angel investors, like Russian gangster money. And like we basically have an unlimited checkbook to buy video game developers. Which six game developers do we buy? And we do it as a format of basically what we’ve come up with like six brackets for game developers and me and Matthew will take it in turns to pick them. And listeners at the end of it will be able to vote on Twitter, we’ll make it very clear where you go and vote in the poll to decide which of me and Matthew has won basically. So what’s your kind of vibe on this premise, Matthew? Yeah, well, like you say, I love it when they do it in the other podcasts because there’s this constant battle between head and heart, which is something which we have a lot, you know, are you trying to build the most compelling list for the average listener or are you trying to build something which really like adheres to your personal values? I think that’s quite an interesting dilemma. I think we’re also quite closely aligned on our tastes in certain regards. I think we value certain studios more than others. So I imagine we’re kind of competing for the same things. Just to sort of zoom out a little bit, it was interesting doing research for this and just making sure that I hadn’t missed any really obvious things. Kind of how weird and messy the developer-publisher kind of relationship is in terms of so many studios kind of trying to go it alone and self-publish and they become publishers. I’m sure as you explain the brackets, you’ll see there’s some distinction about sort of people who are publishers and people who are studios. So that made it slightly nottier than I expected. How about you? Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that the slight issue is that Matthew was messaging me like all night before we recorded this with like questions of, does this count as a publisher or does this count as a developer? And the truth is that because this is not serious, we’re not actually buying video game developers. People might still be frustrated by how we kind of delineated game developers and publishers because some publishers are, you wouldn’t know that they’re publishers like Bloober Team, for example, the people who made the medium. They have a publishing arm. I met their marketing people. So they are technically a publisher. But I suppose they probably would fall into the developer brackets in this draft where one of us to pick them. Because when it comes to publisher, we’re kind of speaking more broadly if they’re Ubisoft’s and EA’s of this world. So there’s a bit of ambiguity there, but it is basically just a fun kind of grab bag. Yeah, I think so. Obviously, very inspired by the fact that in recent years, Microsoft’s been very big on making acquisitions. I thought we could start there actually as a conversation topic, Matthew. So what’s your take on acquisitions generally? Personally to me, it makes no real difference as long as the people buying the developers actually want what the developers are selling. I always thought the most pointless acquisition was bizarre creations by Activision. It felt like they had immediate buyer’s remorse and no patience for the fact that they did a couple of games that didn’t do that well, and the whole thing seemed like a complete waste of time. Bizarre, in theory, could have just kept making Project Gotham games. They were very well liked. Instead, they just don’t exist anymore, and that seemed like a complete waste of time. But these Microsoft ones, I don’t know, getting a better vibe from Microsoft as it stands, that could change in future years. But they do seem to want to preserve what it is that makes these developers good. So where do you stand on it, Matthew? It’s always confusing with Microsoft, because so much of the messaging with them is basically trying to please people. Because I think they had a run of making so many decisions people didn’t like, which basically sort of culminates with them shutting all the studios, or shutting several of the studios they do own. You know, in that kind of coal we had about five years ago of like Lionhead, and Press Play, and… was there another? And other projects they’ve sort of shut down. It felt like they kind of reached quite a low point. And ever since then, everything they’ve done has been about kind of positivity and kind of pleasing people. So, you know, A, they had to buy a load of studios to kind of replace everything, because they didn’t really have anything going on. And then, yeah, like the fan-facing messaging has always been, you know, we’re going to kind of keep what makes these people interesting. And they certainly bought studios who have strong identities, so it didn’t really make any sense to kind of take a hammer to that. I’m generally like on board with it. I mean, you know, I’ve jokingly said in the past, you know, I kind of miss the console wars. I don’t like, you know, not in the kind of childish way, but I do like the idea of, you know, people trying to make their kind of platform proposition as sexy as possible and kind of fight in the corner for their fans. And particularly with Xbox, you know, because whenever they buy a studio, it basically means all their games are now going to be in Game Pass. So as someone who doesn’t have infinite amounts of cash, I’m kind of OK with them folding people into their subscription service. I don’t know if I’m in the minority. So it’s quite hard to get a read on where people are at with all that stuff. But that’s kind of my sort of Microsoft tape, I guess, selfishly, because, you know, I do own all the platforms. It doesn’t really matter who buys who. I feel like I have some access to them either way. I guess if you are, you only have a PlayStation or whatever, it might sting a bit. I kind of like bullish platform holders myself. Yeah, I personally think that this addresses something that, you know, people are flagged as like a problem with them next-gen consoles. They don’t have a lot to differentiate them in terms of like the choice of software. And obviously we’ve seen PS4 succeed because they’ve managed to marshal a lot more exclusives Sony has than Microsoft did. So, you know, it becoming more competitive on that front doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me. I also echo what you say about Game Pass. Like, I’m kind of hoping that Deathloop lands on PC Game Pass day one. That would be really cool. And if not, like, knowing that, you know, whatever future games sort of come up from Arcane, from ID, they will always be there day one. That is like really cool. So this is an obvious consumer upside and it does create some quite fun industry drama. I mean, I’m like, you know, I enjoy watching that stuff play out. And yeah, I don’t know. It seems like the fact that the games are available on PC as well means that you can’t get overtly upset about exclusivity. It’s just that if you have a PS5, you don’t get it. But if you’re going to spend billions of dollars, then that’s going to be your power play, isn’t it? So, yeah, for sure. I mean, it’s no different from Sony buying the… Oh, God, I’ve completely forgotten their name. Insomniac, you know, and kind of cutting them off from potential things in the future. And there was talks recently of like, there might be some sort of Sunset Overdrive 2 or whatever, but that might be a Sony thing now or they’ve re-upped the trademark or something. So it can go both ways. It’s just that Sony are in a bit of a… I think they’re in a little bit of where Microsoft were five years ago in that if you ever hear anything about their studios, it’s about people leaving and things closing. They’ve kind of got that Japan studio thing going on at the moment. That reminds me of the bad Xbox times. And obviously they’re not going through bad times. PlayStation 5 is absolutely flying, but it kind of has that sort of slight carelessness about it, I think. It has that thing of, I wonder what it is they actually value. Well, yeah, that’s it. Naughty Dog and open world narrative games. And every studio will make Naughty Dog style games, I think is their deal. I think this really reached a kind of height when it came to the rumour that The Last of Us was being remade, and everyone just absolutely fucking hated that news on social media because it came right after the Japan studio news. And it was like, oh, you closed a studio that made this exquisite looking version of Demon’s Souls for the PS5 launch, and you want to remake a game that does not need remaking. We’d like you to buy The Last of Us 1 for the third time, where Xbox is, hey, we found a way that that game you bought 20 years ago now works on your current console. Like, the messaging is just miles apart. Yeah, I think though Sony has taken steps to address this by, like, talking about the fact that they’re making games with Jade Raymond’s studio or these ex-Bungie developers or whatever it might be. And obviously they, you know, I would say, like, to your point about them being in a similar position to five years ago, Sony is actually making games and, you know, has made games for their current console and is making games all year, whereas Microsoft is still really uncertain when it comes to that stuff. So, I don’t know. It’s hard to, yeah, it might just be a couple of things lining up, but nonetheless. So, yeah, that’s Acquisitions Matthew. I was curious, we’ve never talked about this on this podcast, but I wonder if this was a significant event in your life of reading Games Press as a younger man. The time that Microsoft bought Rare for hundreds of millions of pounds. So, Rare was 49% owned by Nintendo and then got bought out in, I believe, 2001 or 2002. I’ve written down 2001 here. It was around this time. What was the impact of that to you as a reader, and as someone who played games on Nintendo consoles? I didn’t have a massive interest in industry happenings. Obviously, I read about it and I knew about it, but it didn’t really register with me. I loved GoldenEye and Perfect Dark. I’m not a huge Rare nerd. Outside of GoldenEye and Perfect Dark, I wasn’t like, Oh no, we’re never going to get another Banjo Kazooie. They were a step down from Nintendo’s platformers themselves. So I wasn’t too caught up about it. I think the stuff that they were working on at the time, I wasn’t that bothered about. And I think it probably helped that Star Fox Adventures was a bit of a nothing. So you were like, eh, okay. You know, it’s not the end of the world. I think it would have been different if they’d been working on Perfect Dark 2 and it was a known about thing and you saw pictures of it and then it had been taken away. But at that point, that wasn’t really the vibe of them. And then the early stuff they did on Xbox just weren’t very good. So it didn’t really matter. It was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So just to kind of get a few more facts in here, it was 2002 they bought. It was September 2002 for $375 million. So that was big money like back then. It was a big deal. I sort of echo that in the sense that it took a long, long time. It seemed like over a decade for Microsoft to get rare to a place where it seemed like happy with the stuff it was getting or at least, you know, the stuff it was making, i.e. CFVs actually had like, you know, a positive sort of commercial impact on Xbox. Whereas it did feel like all of its preceding games were kind of like, you know, some got a positive reception. People like Banjo-Kazooie, Nuts and Bolts. We didn’t mention that on our 2008 episode. The Viva Piñata games, you know, they’re really, you know, good. Virginal Great, I’d say, but they’re, you know, they’re quite super niche. And I think they did speak to, like, Xbox, just not really knowing what to do with that studio. And then, again, that hits rock bottom when they just get them making, like, Kinect sports games for what feels like forever. But now, yeah, I think they’ve kind of, like, I don’t know, in fact, I’d say The Sea of Thieves, kind of like what happened with Sea of Thieves and Xbox and Rare makes me feel kind of generally OK about the other studio acquisitions, because I think that is a good example of Xbox going, like, relatively hands-off, letting a studio does what it does best and kind of, you know, find its groove. I imagine they are trying to apply that thinking to all these studios they now have. Yeah, I would think so. The Rare thing is just interesting because it was the first time I remember there being, like, a big acquisition in games, like, I remember there being this, you know, it was a big enough drama that I just remember there being, it felt like one of the first big internet games dramas to me, like, where I was just trying to find out information about it and people on messaging boards were like, oh, shit, you know, I liked all these Nintendo games at N64, you know, platformers, Matthew, that you may not have been as keen on, but nonetheless, it seemed, yeah, it seemed huge at the time, but, yeah, a weird one. So, there’s a bit of preamble, Matthew. Shall we get into the game, the game of acquisitions? Let’s do it. Cool. Okay, so, gonna just explain the rules here. So, here’s the premise. Me and Matthew are two big new rival publishers with an unlimited checkbook. We can buy six studios each, and we have to explain our choices. The rule is, we each take it in turns to pick a studio, and there’s no doubling up. Whoever wins a coin toss goes first. There are six categories in total, so the choices have to be specific. And it’s competitive because we’re each trying to make the biggest impact on the market. I think I may have not read that making the biggest impact on the market thing, or I guess that will come down as we make our case. I’m instantly worried I’ve got some heart choices here, Sam. Let’s revise that then. We are trying to be commercially successful, but we’re trying to make good shit. That’s the overarching thing here. I’ve picked studios that have a good track record, but an equal amount of heart going into my choices, Matthew. I’ve not done this as a game of numbers. I did have a very broad question that I wanted to raise. Why are we doing this? Is that the question? When we buy these studios, are we buying them as they are now, or a theoretical version of them at their best? Maybe that’s a better question to address after we’ve done the brackets. Okay, that’s a good idea. There’s one big bracket that takes a bit more explanation than some of the others. That ties into what you’re saying. Should we do the brackets? These are the brackets, Matthew. Brackets one and two are kind of the same thing. Bracket one, a big studio not owned by a publisher. Bracket two is also a big studio not owned by a publisher. The thinking there is these are the types of studios that Microsoft has been hoovering up. The in-exile type studios or Ninja Theory, for example. These are studios that are basically independently owned or owned by some kind of holding company, and they’re not currently owned by a publisher. Therefore, they’re up for grabs. So that’s brackets one and two. Very straightforward. Bracket three is an indie developer. We’ve categorized that as around 20 employees or less. I know that indie can be a very vague term. And so we’re well aware of that. I have been looking at Wikipedia team sizes for these. Yeah, I haven’t necessarily, actually, but I think my choice probably fits, so it’s fine. Bracket four, a studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders. So a studio owned by Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. Bracket five, an entire third-party publisher, and it can’t be a platform holder. So Microsoft buying Bethesda, that’s the kind of thing we’re talking about. And that also, just to be clear, that gets you all the studios that third-party publisher owns. Yeah, so it’s an important category. It’s a big category. I would also say it’s a category where it’s quite hard to lose, because I think even if you’re the runner-up, you’ll still get something pretty amazing. So I’m really curious to hear your choice for that one, Matthew. So bracket six, the final bracket, this is the most complicated one, the time machine option. You can bring any developer from the past into the present, but it has to be from 10 years ago or more. You can pick that developer at basically any time in their lifespan. So yeah, these can be like closed studios or, you know, studios at their best that kind of got folded into other studios, whatever it might be. So basically, while all the other ones are like, have to adhere to these are the studios as they are now, this bracket is, you know, you pick a specific moment in time for a developer that you like. So they don’t have to be explicitly closed? No, I suppose, should they be closed? I don’t know. Oh, I don’t know. It’s yours closed? Well, I went down that route, but we can discuss that one when we get to it. OK, good. It could be like a snapshot of a company that’s still going, but at a better time. Yeah, I suppose so. I just, like, cards on the table, Matthew. I have picked a closed developer. I have too, because I thought we were talking closed. I guess, yeah, it’s quite hard having these conversations. And this is the challenge last night when I was messaging you about this, is that, like, I don’t want to reveal, like, my thinking at all. So I’ve been trying to find things which are like the things I’m actually interested in. So I was like, oh, what about these guys? Even now, I don’t really want to say, just in case. Yeah, I did wonder if you were, like, you know, kind of feeling out a few options there. And as you pointed out on Twitter, there is a high chance of chaos in this episode. Yeah. OK, that’s interesting, because there’s some people now where I’m like, I thought if you bought them and promised to, like, return them to their former glory, they’d be really valuable asset. But if you bought them as they are now, people might be like, ugh. Well, I think the important thing is that I think because people are probably about, like, 40 people are going to vote on this on Twitter, Matthew. Yeah. I think that we need to basically say that the choices we make for brackets 1 to 5 now are them as they are now. Like, that’s what you’re buying. Just because. That makes it pretty simple. Yeah. Whereas we have a few bonus categories that we’ll get to afterwards. That allows you to put more of a stamp, your stamp on what’s going on. Sorry. But nonetheless, basically, yeah, we’re talking about the developers as they are now. So I will recap again just for people listening. Bracket one, a big studio not owned by a publisher. Bracket two, the same thing, another big studio not owned by a publisher. Bracket three, an indie developer. Bracket four, a studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders, Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo. Bracket five, an entire third party publisher. Bracket’s not a platform holder. You don’t need the bracket spit. That’s for me. There’s too many brackets. Yeah, there is. Because they’re already called brackets. Very confusing. Bracket six, the time machine option. You can bring any developer from the past into the present, but it has to be from 10 years ago and more. And it has to be a closed studio. That’s kind of what we’re agreeing now, right? Let’s just say that. Yeah, let’s agree on that. Cool. All right. Good. So the studio doesn’t exist anymore. That’s what counts for that. So yeah, right. I’m going to do my best not to use the word bracket too many times after this. So yeah, let’s dig a tiny bit into A, why we’re doing this, and then B, our kind of methodology on making our choices, Matthew. So why are we doing this? It’s quite fun, isn’t it? It’s just like playing a silly management sim or something. Yeah, I think so. And it’s nice to think about these, particularly with the time element. It’s been quite useful for looking at a company and thinking like, what is this actually about? What does it currently stand for? How do you feel about its prospects going forward? Because in the lifetime of a studio, they do change massively. That’s why I asked about the timing element. There are some people who are definitely at the peak of their powers at a different time. And so this was quite a fun exercise for that. I’m not saying we started this as an academic exercise, but when I was putting together my list, I was like, oh, actually, yeah, it is interesting. How different our studios might look if we did them at another time. I think that’s very true. There is one choice that I didn’t make that I thought if I’d have picked this 10 years ago, it would be like, it would help me kind of get an edge on you in this. But now their reputation is a little bit more debated, so it becomes less of a kind of slam dunk to pick them. Yeah. Yeah, it’s quite interesting. I also noted, this is just more of an observation, but within these brackets, it does make it very hard to get your hands on a lot of Nintendo stuff. There’s only a couple of ins to Nintendo, because everything’s so folded in to the main platform holder. I kind of got a bit mad going down the rabbit hole and was thinking, well, what happens if I get this studio? But actually, I don’t own any of the IP, because it all belongs to Nintendo. So actually, it’s kind of useless to me. Nintendo is tricky. I will say my list is impressively, or my dream list anyway, is impressively Nintendo free. I may have to do some rethinking on the fly. Okay, interesting. So basically, I don’t have a single Nintendo choice in here. Like you, I just kind of thought, well, there are some studios you could take from Nintendo and it’d be interesting to see how they kind of do without those characters. But it feels like the characters are so intrinsically linked. It’s not like taking, say, Naughty Dog, where I feel like you don’t need The Last of Us or Uncharted for there to be a good Naughty Dog game. Naughty Dog could make a good game, like an original game, and it would probably be good. So that’s just an example of the sort of type of thinking, I suppose. I did try and think of it a bit as sort of like, there was a connecting link of types of games. So I’ve kind of gone for sort of like hardcore-ish games with a bit of like sort of strong, or the strong narrative element or like good world building. Like that’s kind of like the kind of rough template. I did cynically think about like, what I imagine our listeners to be like in their tastes and what we have championed on this podcast and like how I could get like exclusive rights to as much of that as possible. Yeah. I don’t think you would ever necessarily build the studio I’m proposing we build. But, well, we’ll see. Yeah, I think that actually there’s a, you know, there’s a big kind of Nintendo contingent that listens to this podcast, enjoys your sort of like discussions of Nintendo, Matthew. So I think you’re right where that might give you the edge at certain points. But yeah, I think as well, like you say, there’s going to be so much crossover that there will be a competitive element. So like I say, we’ll do like a coin toss. Whoever kind of goes first gets to pick first and then we take it in turns basically, and they can pick an entry from any of the categories. So yeah, certain of the brackets feel like more of a gold mine and you want to get in early on them, but we shall see. Yeah, I’ve thought kind of strategically about what I want to do first. So I’m sure you have to. Oh really, interesting. So shall we do it Matthew? Let’s do it. Do you have a coin? Because I realized that I haven’t used like physical money. What a start. I mean, I haven’t used physical money since March 2020. So I could probably go find one. I imagine there’s a coin flip app on the internet. That’s a very good point. Why don’t you do it? Because I trust you to be honest, but not myself. God, that’s terrible. There’s like a Google coin flip thing. So what do you want? What do you want? I’ll let you pick. Tales. Tales it is. So I’m going first, yeah? You’re going first. Okay. So my first choice, a big studio not owned by a publisher, I’m going with From Software for bracket one. Yep. So I’m feeling pretty good about that one. Basically, we’re talking about the most acclaimed developer of the last 10 years. It’s making Elden Ring a game that is the most hyped up game of this generation so far. Every bit of information, people are jumping on it. I’m not the world’s biggest Dark Souls fan. I love Sekiro though, and I love the world of Bloodborne, even if it’s a bit too close to Dark Souls in style for me to love the game. But Sekiro makes me think, they’re a Samuel Roberts studio now. Come into the fold, join the team. We’re going to make some good shit. I’m going to bankroll all of your mad, dark, hardcore RPG action games. What do you make of this choice, Matthew? Yeah, that’s a great choice. It was definitely in my list of contenders and could have potentially been a pick. I think the only problem with owning from software is you do doom yourself to just the most terrible online discourse for the rest of your career. People are going to be hassling you for news forever. Maybe it’s worth taking that hit. Yeah, let my marketing team worry about that. Me, Zaki and friends, they can just get on with making the good shit. You can properly insulate them from all that bullshit. Exactly, yeah. I’ll just say, don’t go on Twitter. Just keep making this. Keep making your fucked up worlds with lots of little bits of lore strewn about the place and funny player messages and wacky bosses. Crack on, we’ll make some good shit together. Interesting, interesting. I mean, you’re right, it is super hardcore. I would also say it instantly sets out your table and maybe draws a certain kind of fan to your wider publisher. And you’re going to have to deal with maybe the juxtaposition of From Software and your other picks, which may be difficult. People can be like, oh man, I thought I knew what they were about with From Software, but they’ve also got X, so I mean, there’s a risk there. Yeah, but you know, like Namco publishes, you know, Elden Ring, but also Tycho now Tatsujin. Well, that’s, yeah, but yeah, and they have to deal with people who are constantly like, yeah, Dark Souls, and like, fuck that drum with a face. Has anyone ever said that on the internet? Yeah, all the time, they’re like, no, like they’re like, guys, we’ve got a reveal coming up, and everyone’s like, Elden Ring, Elden Ring, and they’re like, it’s drum with a face four. And everyone’s like, fuck the drum with a face. I want to hit his face with an axe, and we’ve got to deal with that. Okay, well, you know, bit of cynicism there, but I feel like this is like the big developer that’s kind of on there. I’m just jealous. I’m just trying to put a spin on it so people vote for whatever I pick. Let’s go on then, Matthew Luxor, it’s your turn. So which of the brackets are you picking for your first? I’m also going to start with a studio not owned by a publisher. I’m going to go straight for IO Interactive. Okay, very good choice. And weirdly one I kind of forgot when I was making this list. Oh, wow. Okay. I really thought that was going to be highly in contention for this one, so that’s why I thought I’ve got to get in early. Now I feel like I’ve wasted that quite golden opportunity. That’s good. Yeah, I mean, listen, if you listen to this podcast, you’ll know where we stand on the subject of Hitman. I mean, this is a choice built pretty much solely on Hitman and the idea of them making Hitman-esque games going forwards. We’ve also got that James Bond license. That’s going to be massive. I mean, that’s going to be a big crowd pleaser. Like, whatever happens, that’s probably going to make my publishing label a lot of money, which is good, because it means I won’t get fired. I can’t believe I’m scared of being fired from my own fictional label. You haven’t even started it yet. You haven’t even, like, opened some business. That’s how doomed this operation is. That’s where I am mentally in my career, that I can see the writing on the wall before the wall’s even been constructed. That’s great. Yeah, like, I think, particularly in this new Hitman, this studio really knows what it’s about. I love their vibe, their energy. I love their cynical humour. I think to give them the space to do what they want… I mean, if I was being malicious, I’d basically force them to roll out a new Hitman location every three or four months and just have that as a games of service running forever, is what I might do with that studio, just to make sure we’ve got more Hitman. But yeah, I’m pretty confident in that pick. Yep, it’s a solid choice. I’m assuming the real reason you bought them is to make them make mini ninjas too, Matthew? I wouldn’t let them make that and there wouldn’t be any Kane and Lynch as well. Actually, a lot of my thinking was based on, like, I could buy this to cancel this, but I thought that was too negative a place to come from. I thought I could actually get rid of all the stuff I don’t like in the world, but I don’t think that’s a very firm foundation. Yeah, that’s not a good way to build a company, in my opinion. It’s like, we’ve brought you to stop you doing the thing that people like you for. Well, that’s basically like all these angel investors build the best studio in the world and I’m thinking, I’m going to murder Spyro with all this money. If you did do that, you’d be quite a character in the industry, which is quite good for the news cycle, but we’ll see. Yeah, I don’t know if execs being in the news cycle is always a good thing, but nonetheless, I think they’re probably on a par as choices, those two. I’d say for this particular podcast, they’re two quite key players in our general thing. Yeah, I think that’s probably fair. So, my choice then. For this next one, I’m going with Indie Developer. What? That’s early. Well, I think this is the right one. I’m picking Team Cherry, the developers of Hollow Knight. So, I think this is a really good show. I cannot think of an indie game that I’ve seen get the kind of basically first online for information like this. The interest in that Silksong game is just massive. I can’t think of anything vaguely comparable. When I went over this category, I thought about subset games who make FTO into the breach. I love those games. That’s just like a two-person studio. I thought about Giant Sparrow, the developers of Edith Finch. But then I thought, what is a shit hot indie game that will get people excited about my company? I’ve bought Hollow Knight. I’ve bought the people who made this cult favorite. Well, it’s not really a cult anymore. It’s too big to be a cult. It’s like millions of people. It’s more like a minor religion. But yeah, I’m feeling pretty good about this. Team Cherry, that’s my pick for indie developer. Yeah, I’m not going to pick my indie one yet, but it’s difficult because a lot of these, you feel like you buy, because a lot of them aren’t that prolific, you’re buying one specific thing. An indie studio with quite a wide track record is quite hard to find just due to the nature of the time it takes to make these things. And you’re right, they are one of the few that have an absolute sure thing in the future. Oh man, I’d love it if that game came out as seven out of 10 now, just because you’ve bought it. I don’t think that’s a good enough reason to wish it ill, personally. Just to spite you, I hope this game is shit. Listen, I’m okay with that. I think that’s a great head choice. From my personal heart choice, I’m not a big Hollow Knight guy, so I’m not too disappointed by that. I am quite happy that I don’t have to pay money for that game in the future, because I won’t be buying it. So, that’s okay. Alright then Matthew, what’s your second pick? This is really tricky. I feel like I don’t have to pick indie until the end now, because you can’t pick another indie studio basically. Yeah, but I’m fine with that, because that’s the only indie studio I really wanted. You got the one you wanted. I’m going to go for an entire third party publisher. Go on. Oh, I could have any of them. As they are now, I’m actually… Listen, it’s a bit of a heart choice. I’m going to buy Capcom. That was my choice for that one. Interesting, yeah. I’m going to buy Capcom because as, again, if you’ve listened to the podcast, you’ll know that I am into a lot of the stuff they have made. I think they had a bit of a wobble like six years ago, but I think their current run has been absolutely brilliant. I think they’re making lots of games. I think they’re making lots of good games. More importantly, I think they’re making lots of games that I personally really like. I think they’re on a roll with Monster Hunter. I think Resident Evil is in a really good place. They’ve still got Shooter Q making Ace Attorney, and he will be making Ace Attorney until his dying day. Let me tell you that. They’ve got Devil May Cry. They’ve got Street Fighter. They’ve got other retro franchises they can go back to, but I think they are currently working what they have really well. I think they’ve got some super smart people there making really fun games. It’s the identity of my studio. I really want people to like this kind of balmy stuff. I think there are definitely third-party publishers that get you more in terms of wider studios and whatnot, and this was a difficult one. When you pick yours, we can talk about some of the also runs because it was difficult. Yeah, I think, I don’t know, I just want to own Shootakumi. This turned into you being a fucking creepy CEO, way faster than I thought it would. No, why is that? In a good way, I want to support him. You’re like, I want to buy these series to shut them down. Shootakumi will have no choice but to make Ace Attorney to his dying day. I own Shootakumi. Listen, I’m going to dial back. I’m going to let him just make games because he’s definitely got, not a ghost trick too, but he’s proven himself to do other things. Good news, guys. Zack and Wiki is back on the menu. That’s back. Pure Vanity Project. More Resident Evil light gun games. You want to play Resident Evil 7 and 8 as light gun games? Get on board with the old Castle Publisher. And they’ll still be on the Wii, those light gun games. They’re going to be on the Wii. Basically, we’re going to relive my glory days of Endgamer. That’s also part of this. That is definitely you appealing to the people there. Because, you know… If you loved Endgamer, vote for this studio. That’s so cynical, Jesus Christ. Okay, I think that is a good choice. It is the one I wanted. You asked me about Rockstar, which I… That is the one you wanted. Sorry, I misheard you. I didn’t realize that’s the one you wanted. No, Capcom is the one I wanted. Oh, right. I thought you were going to go for something else. No, that actually scuppers one of my later plans as well, which I am for the bonus category. So I have to rethink that. But that’s fine. That’s fine. So I’m going to go for my third pick. A studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders. Arcane Studios now belong to me. Oh. Yep. So I’ve got From Software, Team Cherry, Arcane Studios. I fucking like that as a roster. So developers are dishonored and pray. As high a point in credibility as they’ve ever been, people were massively pumped about Deathloop. There was an amazing quote doing the rounds from that developer saying this isn’t fast food, it’s cuisine, about Deathloop. Which I fucking loved. It was such a ludicrous… Is that going to be your company motto? Well no, because I fucking love fast food. Oh right. Your motto is fast food and cuisine. Yeah, that’s it. That’s the Sammy Roberts motto. So yeah, Arcane Studios I think is a good pick. They’re owned by Microsoft. There were loads I thought about for this category. I thought about Naughty Dog. But I’m fine with playing Naughty Dog games. I don’t need to own them. But Arcane just make the very systemsy, hardcore games that I like. And I think that’s kind of what we’re going for with this publisher a little bit. Which is why I wanted to buy Capcom. It’s quite detailed mechanics in games. Games that don’t really play themselves. Trying to go for that sort of vibe. And yeah, I thought Arcane was a good pick. What do you think of that one, Matthew? Yeah, that’s a great pick. I won’t lie. That was at the top of my list. For studios that belong to one of the platform holders. I mean, this one is there are so many great studios that you can only get in this bracket. It’s kind of an embarrassment of riches. But yeah, definitely for this podcast, Arkane, their track record is kind of perfect as it is currently. I have high hopes for Deathloop. I think they’re a really productive studio as well. Like they’ve made quite a lot of stuff. They make a lot of stuff, which may sound like a bit of a dumb way of thinking about it. But some studios are brilliant, but they’re just so slow. Or they really take their time finding the idea. And that works for them. But I’d like a balance of quality to productivity. Again, not to sound too much like I’m appealing to the shareholders here. But RK, they make some of the best games on the planet. And they make lots of them. So that’s a great pick. Yeah, two studios in Austin. And where’s the other one? It’s in France by Leon. Those will be fun places to visit. You don’t even know where they are and you brought them. Those will be fun places. That is such a money man move. No, I know. It’s just early in the morning. Yeah, I think Arkane, you know, they’ll be fun to visit as well as CEO. When I kind of do my big money man trips, my first class flights around the world, when I’ve had like my mega vaccine, you know, the kind of CEO version of the vaccine that like gives you kind of like the Jack Krauser demonic arm. That will be, you know, high on my list. It’s just visiting Arkane every few months. See what they’re working on. Visit these lovely places. Enjoy the culture of Austin and enjoy how pretty Leon looks. Yeah, talk to some people more talented than myself about the games they’re making. I love the idea of they’re going to people in Bath heading up to the race course and then they’re like, wait, isn’t that the owner of that amazing new mega studio publisher huffing up the hill? Yeah, I mean, the people of Bath famously admire CEOs from video games companies. There’s a lot of future publishing people here. Yeah, that’s true. It’s like if you were going to get your vaccine and you saw Bobby Kotick walking up to Bath race course, you’d note it. I’d be like, hey, it’s that guy from Bodyball. Okay, well, we’ve probably talked about that one enough. What’s your next one, Matthew? Third choice, right? Yeah. So I feel like I don’t have to act now on the platform holders. That’s fine. You can’t take another of those. I feel like there’s probably gold in the big studio not owned by a publisher, but you’ve not picked any of these yet. Yeah, well, that’s because I have like three backups. Well, you have. You’ve picked Sekiro. Yeah, I picked from software. So I’ve got three backups that I like. All of them I’ll be happy with. Oh, okay. So I don’t know. This could be a chance to get my hands on a big PR win by getting some legendary developers in the mix just to have them for the prestige, like the prestige of owning them. I’m going to pick one that I don’t think you’re going to have picked. For bracket two. For bracket two, yeah. And this is to push into some other genres that I currently don’t have anything in. I’m actually going to pick Larian for this. Oh, that’s an interesting choice. They do self-publish themselves, but I think we can treat them as a developer, because they publish themselves. So I think they’re a self-contained development studio that aren’t owned by a bigger publisher. So I think that’s fair. They are, for my money, the makers of the best RPGs at the moment. I think they are at the height of their powers at the moment, coming off Divinity Original Sin 2, coming into Borders Gate 3. I just think they’re a great studio to own, just from the angle of they are, the way they carry themselves is really admirable. They’ve got this great community interaction. They’ve done everything in a very pure, honest, open way. I’d hope that would rub off on my other studios. I’d love it if my entire publishing label had the positive energy of Larian, which is very people-first. They’ve also got a sense of humour about themselves. They’re a bit goofy. Yeah, I think you get some great RPG talent with these guys, where there are a lot of Western, most Western RPG studios, I think, have kind of botched it a little bit recently. I think they’re absolutely hitting it out of the park, and I think they’re really, really good blokes. Blokes? I think they’re a really good gang, and they’re really fun to hang out with. When you go to a Larian event, you always have a really good time. So like, they’ll be like a good time studio. They’re like a secret weapon when you’re doing like E3s and Gamescoms and things, because everyone’s just like, what, I laugh there. Yeah, I’ve never played any of their games. Will I ever play one of their games? I mean, I feel like it would have happened by now if I was going to, when a piece of game I called Original sent to the Game of the Year. I thought, well, I’ll either play it now or I won’t play it. I haven’t. So yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know that I’m that sad to have lost this, but I agree that like getting RPGs is a good solid addition to your sort of line up there. Yeah, I’ve currently got IO, Larian and Capcom. Yeah, that’s like a pretty good selection. So what will I pick next? Right, so for me, my fourth choice, I’m picking Bracket 6, the time machine option. I’m picking Clover Studio circa 2006. Hideki Kamiya and Shinji Mikami now work for me and feature some of the best Capcom artists and developers of their generation. So I feel pretty good about that pick. I just bought basically a massive chunk of Capcom at that time. That doesn’t like fuck with the timeline of a Capcom I now own in the present day. Well, they closed the studio, that’s the thing. So they still exist as they are. They wouldn’t change. This is interesting because there’s another studio which could be confusing if you bought with this one. Yeah, I think I know which one you mean. There are ways in this that you end up with two Hideki cameos. And what happens if they meet? Do they both explode? I don’t know, how does time travel work? Do they both have Twitter accounts? Is it the same Twitter account? What a nightmare. I feel pretty good about this. This is the teams that made God Hand and Akami. It could be confusing from a timeline point of view. Clover Studio, I get a big chunk of Capcom. I thought about other developers for this. I thought about, for example, the developers of Deus Ex. Iron Storm. I thought about Iron Storm. I thought making Thief, making Deus Ex, that’s a good combination of stuff. But ultimately, that studio seemed to end in catastrophic financial failure. It felt like that wasn’t onto a good thing. Here, I think that these developers, even though they’re in a very self-indulgent point in their career, I feel positive about the stuff they can make. Akami, not a game I love, God Hand, a game I do love, but Akami is a game that’s very loved by loads and loads of people and has endured over the generations. It felt like they only really started going with the kind of stuff they could have made. I think Clover Studio at this point, quite a good choice. Yeah, I’m pretty happy with that. That’s four for me, Matthew. I’ve got From Software, Team Cherry, Arcane Studios and Clover Studio. I like that. The publisher one, I’m still trying to figure out in my head as I go. Why don’t you hit me with your fourth choice? My fourth choice, so luckily there’s not a lot of competition for these because you’ve picked in the categories I’ve got left, so I’ve really got a free choice of anything. A studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders. I’m going to buy Playground Games. Interesting. So now you’re moving into the racing genre. Truly, there’s no thread in terms of genre to this developer. Well, it covers a lot of genres. No, but there is a through line in terms of an attitude of fun and just pure entertainment. And for my liking, Playground Games in the Forza Horizon series have made the most fun racing games that I’ve ever played. I absolutely love this series. It’s a series that makes me care about cars or enjoy cars. And I don’t normally. It’s not an interest I have at all. The mainline Forza doesn’t do it for me. This is also the studio making the new Fable. So I think we’re getting on that, which is cool. Like that’s quite a big open world RPG thing. So that ticks a lot of boxes. I’ve got high hopes that as another kind of British studio, they’re going to bring back a lot of the character, you know, that Lionhead had in the originals. Yeah, I just think they make super polished, big entertaining games. I think they sit very nicely alongside, like, the fun of Capcom, for example. I think in the RPG space, they’ll be doing something very different to Larry. And yeah, I think this is a big great British success story. And I’m happy to welcome them into my publishing label. That’s a good choice. Do you have to rename Fable because you won’t own the copyright anymore? Or will it be called Bayful or something else, or British Tales or something like that? Have you figured that out? Yeah, I mean, I feel like I’m paying a lot of money for their biggest brains to kind of come up with that. Okay, yeah. Cool. All right, Bayful it is. Bayful coming to next-gen consoles. Cool. So yeah, it’s a good choice. I must admit, the other one I had for this bracket I was thinking about was Bethesda Game Studios. So I thought about like, you know, the makers of Skyrim and stuff. But after Fallout 76, it feels like they’re just not the hot choice. Also, Matthew, you asked me about CD Projekt and I’m guessing that was you doing a bit of a red herring because… No, I did contemplate it quite honestly for a bit. I was like, maybe, maybe there’s something in CD Projekt Red, but… Yeah, I suppose it’s just like post-Cyberpunk. It’s not necessarily the best time to strike with her. I think if you’re guaranteed to get The Witcher 4, I think that’s a pretty sexy proposition. Also, I don’t know, I had a slight thing in the back of my head about trying to avoid any major places where they’d had reports of poor behaviour or wrong ends. That actually ruled out one of the publishers for me. Yeah, so not that that’s not a driving principle, like my company is open to wrong ends. Don’t get me wrong, any wrong ends listening, that’s fine. The CEO himself is a dubious character. Oh yeah, absolutely. But yeah, there are easier purchases than them, I think. Yeah, so fair enough, that makes sense. So we’ve each done four brackets now Matthew, so to recap for the listeners. I’m From Software, Team Cherry, Arcane Studios, Clovis Studios, Circuit 2006. What’s your four studios? I am IO Interactive, Larian, Playground Games and Capcom. Interesting. Okay, so. That sounds pretty good already. I’m like already down with this. It’s pretty good, yeah, it’s pretty good. I do kind of wonder if I should have picked Capcom first, but I really wanted From Software. I really, really wanted that. I don’t regret that choice. So, my fifth choice then. So, another big studio not owned by a publisher. I am picking Kojima Productions. Ah. Yeah. So. It was there. It was between that and Larian. Yeah. So, you know, you could argue this is a bit of an unproven entity. I mean, Death Stranding, very acclaimed game. Seems to have a very good reputation, particularly after its release on PC. And, you know, Kojima, you know, we know he needs to be kind of indulged in terms of, like, you know, budgets and international trips to game developers and tweeting about Mads Mikkelsen, but we can make all that happen for him over at my publishing label. At the moment, you can take him on a tour of From Software, who I imagine, you know, that’s fine. Team Cherry. That’s fine. At last. And RK. And back in time to Clover Studio. Yeah, that’s okay. It’s not quite like… He likes to go to like big kind of graphical powerhouses though, doesn’t he? He likes to go to like Gorilla. Yeah, but he doesn’t just go to developers who, you know, are part of the company where he works. He goes everywhere, doesn’t he? He’s like, oh, hey, I’m at Remedy today. I just like the idea of going to Team Cherry and it’s like two dudes in a garage or something. Yeah, I’m sure they work in a garage, Matthew. I don’t know. But what’s wrong with going to Austin or Leon? That’s a nice trip. Yeah, that’s fun. He’s just trying to pull. I’ll take that back. They’re kind of like the mud slinging has already begun. Like it’s not even E3 yet. I mean, we haven’t even started business and we’re already getting… I really like old school console wars. I see us as kind of an EA Activision sort of circa 2008. You’re the guy who from that mention of that previous episode drawing pictures of Sonic urinating on Mario. Yeah, very much. The other way around. I’ve got that energy. So yeah, I feel pretty good about that. Kojima Productions rumored to be making a horror game next. That is fine with me. You’ll be able to firm that rumour up. Well, there you go. That’s it. I would like to ideally get Kojima Productions making horror games or stealth games. But I’m open to kind of to anything basically. But yeah, a horror game with Kojima’s name on it. That’s been a long time coming, given the different horror elements of his previous work. I feel like that’s got to happen. So yeah, I had a couple of backups for that one, that second bracket. So that’s like my two big studios not owned by a publisher. I’ve now firmed up basically. I only have one bracket left and that is the publisher bracket. Cool. So yeah, so far then for bracket one, a big studio not owned by a publisher got From Software. Bracket two, another big studio not owned by a publisher have got Kazuma Productions. Bracket three, an indie developer, Team Cherry. Bracket four, a studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders, Arkane Studios and bracket six, the time machine option Clovis Studios circa 2006. I’m feeling pretty good about that. So yeah, this last piece will be interesting. It will be a fraught, I’m sure. So tell me your fifth pick, Matthew. Yeah, my fifth pick, I’m going to go with indie developer. I’m going to take Supergiant. Okay, interesting. What was your thinking there? Just because, again, in keeping with some of my other thinking, they’ve got a great track record. They’ve made a lot of games on Hades. They are absolutely, you know, top of the pile in a lot of people’s thoughts. Okay, they haven’t announced their next thing. We don’t know what they’re doing next. But I feel like they’ve gone from strength to strength. I feel like they are in indie studio with a good track record, which is that thing I was talking about earlier. And interestingly, they make something quite different every time, which I really like as well. So I feel like I’m going to see a lot of interesting stuff out of them. But there are other developers who maybe had like one game that I’m super into. Like I did think about like buying Lucas Pope, for example, because I liked Obra Dinn so much. But that also took a long time to make. And he might not have another, you know, he can’t just make Obra Dinn too, I don’t think. I did think about Mobius Digital for Outer Wilds, just because, you know, as a studio that just arrived, like fully formed this thing I loved, that makes me really excited about whatever they’ll do next. It is them, but we don’t know what they’re going to do next. I just, yeah, I’ll admit this is a bit, this is actually more of a head choice. Like, you know, I like the super giant stuff. I’m not super in love with it, you know, like I’ve played a bit of Hades, but I know a lot of people who are into a lot of things they have made. So, yeah, I’m going with them. That’s a good pick. I think that’s about as good as my Team Cherry pick. Hades got very much a similar profile, I think, to Hollow Knight in terms of, you know, following and stuff like that. Yeah, and like, you know, just the kind of, I feel like between the gods in Hades and the giant vampire lady over at Capcom, I kind of own a lot of the kind of performative horniness bit of Twitter. So that’s quite good. Yeah, I mean, I hadn’t really thought of that as a battleground, to be honest. Well, I’ve instantly won that one. That’s good. Plus yourself, of course. Plus myself, yeah. Miles Edgeworth, I think he’s got a bit of that vibe. Yeah. That’s true. There’s nothing horny in From Software Games, I must admit. It’s all just sort of like, you know, monsters made entirely out of arms and boobs and things, it’s only a bit much. Yeah. And, you know, I can’t really lean on arcane games, they’re not horny. Everyone looks poorly in those games. Yeah, exactly. Because human production games are horny, but in a kind of male gaze-y way that makes people think they’re embarrassing. Yeah, if anything, that’s something you’d probably want to be transitioning them away from. Yeah, okay, I can’t argue with your horny quotient there. That’s pretty good. Yeah, I mean, a little bit of me thought about, not a moment of madness, because I really like their games, the fireproof who make the room series, because I really like the room games. But again, that would just be me forcing them to make the room for the rest of their lives, which would probably be a bit miserable for them. So, you know, I’ll let them retain their independence, but if they ever want to do any kind of series crossovers, I’m up for it. Yeah, OK, for sure. OK, well, a fine choice, Matthew. So we’re down to my last pick, which is for third-party publisher. So Capcom was my choice, but obviously Matthew beat me to the punch. My choice instead is going to be Rockstar Games. So I think between Kojima Productions from Software, Arkane and Rockstar Games, every E3, my games are going to be front and center. Interesting. I think that’s probably true for some of your games, but I think that the volume of them here potentially a lot higher. I’ve got Rockstar Games coming off the back of Red Dead Redemption 2, one of the most acclaimed games of the generation, very high on your list of the best games of the generation, Matthew. And obviously working on the next GTA. So yes, I think that, because obviously you’re buying the publisher, you’re buying the IP as well, you’re buying GTA, you’re buying Red Dead. I feel like it’s a good choice. They own a lot of dormant series that I’m very fond of, like Max Payne, Bully, LA. Noire. We’ll find some ways to get those going again. Might call it down on the endless new cars released for GTA Online, which is a part of Rockstar I’m not as interested in. But in terms of open world spectacle, no one does it like Rockstar. I love that you’re coming in, you’re buying Rockstar, and your first plan is to cut down on the huge money making operation that is GTA Online. Your shareholders are not going to like that pitch. Well look, we’re going to try and get to more frequent releases built in smaller worlds, like in the 360 days. GTA can still be… It’s time to cancel the billions we’re making from GTA Online, but how about more photorealistic, sad, widowed husbands in LA. Noir 2? Great. Oh, that’s like terrible mudslinging, that is. If you are saying that you wouldn’t play the shit out of LA. Noir 2… Oh no, I definitely would. I’m surprised you actually, having made that case, that you would still have picked Capcom over them. Well, I think my thinking with that was that I had a plan to basically put McCarmy back on Resident Evil. But that obviously by having him from Clovis Studio. But that’s like no longer the case. I can’t believe you’re basically kidnapping people from time to bring them into modern studios. It’s like a DC Comics Villains plot, isn’t it? That’s mad, on mad scheme. McCarmy’s not going to go, what the hell is going on? Well, look, I think that you’re overthinking it. And I think he’ll value the opportunity to get to use newer technologies. 14 years hence, he can see what games are capable of. And my publisher, he can make his dreams come true. So it’s going to be some good stuff. But I think I’m pretty happy with that selection. Because I did think there’s a bunch of them I thought about for publisher. I thought about Ubisoft, the volume of people you get with Ubisoft is very good. But I’m picking more hard choices here. And I like Ubisoft games, but don’t love them necessarily. So Rockstar, I’m picking a smaller publisher, I guess. We agreed, you and I, that you can’t take take two because it gives you too much stuff. Take two gives you Civ and XCOM and GTA. And at that point, it’s the only one to pick basically. So we decided to break off 2K and Rockstar. But Rockstar is good, yes. Okay, so I’ve got From Software, Koshiba Productions, Team Cherry, Arcane Studios, Rockstar Games and Clovis Studio Circa 2006. Matthew, I think that’s a strong choice. That is very strong. I really liked your case about E3. I mean, like if E3 does make or break a games company, you’ve certainly got a very strong showing there. That does mean you’re going to have to come out with GTA 6 tattooed on your arm. That’s fine. I’m willing to do that. Will a temporary tattoo be sufficient? Will people be able to tell? Yeah, I mean, like I think that Peter Moore had it on his arm. Maybe I can have it on like one of my fat thighs, just like pull up my cycling shorts and show people. A very awkward 30 seconds where you slowly roll up one leg of your shorts. And everyone’s like, there better be something good under these shorts. Oh, for the publisher bracket, I thought about EA as well to get respawned, but I wouldn’t know what to do with all those sports. And so I just thought, I can’t be bothered to like deal with this. And I just thought. It’s like, I’m afraid all of you are fired because I don’t understand sports. Yeah, or business. I thought EA was super powerful. If you could get like, if it was like the dream version of EA, where you’ve got respawn as they are now, Bioware at the height of their powers, Criterion at the height of their powers, and DICE at the height of their powers, that’s pretty potent. The real EA didn’t want that, apparently. Like PopCap knocking out, you know, Peggle-like winners. Yeah, PopCap, yeah, well-making, like early days mobile gaming. You’re talking about basically 2008, 2009 kind of time, right? Yeah, I don’t know if there’s ever a period where every single bit of EA is firing on all cylinders. No, because that’s slightly before FIFA is good again as well. So like, you and I obviously deeply invested in FIFA. Yeah, let’s just, yeah, hmm, hmm. Yeah, so, yeah, I thought about that, but that didn’t quite fit. I thought about Sega, but again, there’s like parts of it I don’t really understand, like football manager. I wouldn’t know what I’m doing with that. So, you know, I think like… I think for this podcast, if you picked Sega, you do get, you get the double whammy of Yakuza and like Persona, which is, that’s pretty tasty. Yeah, I thought about that, but then I just thought like, again, I just, there’s Sonic as well. And like, I knew that you would use Sonic against me. And I wasn’t prepared to give you that ammunition. I contemplated buying Sega specifically to cancel Sonic. But I thought, you know, well, that’s just malicious. I’d rather have Capcom. Capcom, I don’t feel like I have to cancel anything. I’m not, I’m not big on Mega Man, I will admit, but not so much that I’d cancel a dude. No, I think that Capcom’s a good choice. But, yeah, Matthew, you’ve got one final category. Yeah, this is really tough, because I feel like you actually picked a really good one in Clovis Studio. Oh, god damn it. My choice is really super underpowered for this, so I’m just desperately trying to think if there’s something else I can pick other than it. I don’t know if it falls within the 10 years. Could you pick mid to late 90s LucasArts for this? We’re talking 10 years ago or more. I mean, LucasArts, they were a publisher technically. Yeah, that’s the thing. It’s not really fair, is it? No. I think the problem is that they made games from themselves, but they also published games from like Factor 5 and stuff, so I’m not quite sure that works. I’m just going to talk through some of my thinking of things that I had contemplated. I had contemplated for about 10 seconds Factor 5 for the Rogue Squadron glory days, but I just, I don’t know. I think that’s still a little undercooked. That’s like a three-year time period where they’re making games that are broadly acclaimed, basically, isn’t it? Yeah, and it’s all just very shiny, like Mega Drive tech. That’s harsh. It’s very good. Those are legit good, the Rogue Squadron games. Did I say Mega Drive? I meant GameCube. I don’t know why I said Mega Drive. I thought it was a diss. No, no, no. I think I was looking… I don’t know why I thought that. Ignore that. That was just my brain going mad. People are like, what the fuck are they talking about? I had thought about like Lionhead, but they only closed five years ago. This doesn’t really work. I’m going to end on the softest heart choice of all time for this. I’m going to bring back Sing, which is not a wise move. It’s not a sound business decision. The angel investors are like generally on board with everything, I think, but this one may be like, oh no, this guy’s an idiot. I felt like Sing hit a dead end a little too early. I actually think their loam, like moody vibe of Hotel Dusk and Last Window could actually probably work a bit better in this modern day. Like people are into sort of slightly more kind of chilled sort of indie stuff. I could see it fitting into, you know, there are like 8,000 indie games about running a coffee shot now it seems, and I could see Sing sitting alongside that. I’d like to see Sing have a little play with Switch technology and all the weird functionality of the controllers, because that’s like an underrated part of Sing is that they did quite experimental stuff with like the form of the DS. I’d like to see what they did with that. I mean, I’d just like, you know, listen, you’ve given me all this money. I’m going to right a wrong. I’m going to give them a second chance. We’ll get a bit more Carl Hyde, a few more Carl Hyde games. That’s absolutely fine. Like, it’s more about keeping some nice people in work. So, you know, if you support that kind of very, like, humane world view, probably vote for my publishing label. I love how cynical that is. Yeah. Listen, if you want a load of, like, late 50s to early 60s creatives to not have jobs, then by all means vote for Mr. Rockstar and Arkane. Oh, God. You know, we let people… We’ll hire all the people that had to leave Sing, if needs be, at our publisher. Where are they going to work? Which of your studios are you possibly going to slot the talent of Sing into? I think they could work on some of the kind of, like, world building at From Software or Arkane. I don’t know, to be honest. That’s quite a hard one to figure out. But yeah, I think that that’s a very you choice. I think that’s weaker than my choice for that category, personally. Yeah, it is. I did think, yeah, Clover Studio was on my list. I was, like I said, I was worried about, like, time paradoxes and things. I was curious why you didn’t pick OG Kojima Productions, actually, because that was one I think you sounded me out about. Like, PS2 era, Konami or something like that? Oh, well, no, that was a wider Konami conversation because when I was thinking about my publisher, like, before we settled on the we’re buying them as they are now, I thought if you could buy Konami at the height of its, like, Castlevania and Metal Gear Solid and Pro Evo powers, I thought they were actually, like, not an unreasonable choice for third-party publisher. But if you buy them as they are now, like, that would be unwise, I’d say. Yeah, and I guess in my head I just saw Kojima as part of that, like, just part of the wider Konami kind of ecosystem rather than the standalone studio within it. But, yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen. Oh, I feel like I’ve really biffed it this thing. Right, and let’s recap both our choices then, Matthew. You go first. Go through all your different brackets. Yeah, so a big studio not owned by a publisher. I’ve got Kojima Productions. No, I haven’t. That’s you. This is going well. How is it this came off? There’s only six choices. Oh, this is so hard. Just reading out a list of bots. It’s because I’ve put bullet points next to yours and they stand out more. Yeah, I’ve done this as well. I’ve fucked this up so badly. My doc for this. Leave this in the edit because it’s good. A big studio not owned by a publisher. IO Interactive. Another big studio not owned by a publisher. Larian. An indie developer. Supergiant. A studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders. Playground Games. An entire third party publisher. Capcom. And a time machine studio brought back from the dead. Sing. Interesting. See, I think we’re tied on all of the categories except I think I’ve got the edge on you in a couple. Definitely the edge on you in Time Machine. But I think you’ve got the edge on me in Publisher, so let’s go through mine. So, bracket one. A big studio not owned by a publisher, from Software. Bracket two. Another big studio not owned by a publisher, Kojima Productions. Bracket three. An indie developer. Team Cherry. Bracket four. A studio that already belongs to one of the three platform holders, Arcane Studios. Bracket five. An entire third party publisher. Rockstar Games. Bracket six. Clovis Studio Circus 2006. I don’t think I have a single weak spot there. Like, I think that’s all strong. Like, your mileage might vary on GTA these days, but everyone seems to love Red Dead Redemption 2. I think, I feel pretty confident about where they’re going. So, yeah. But the people will decide, Matthew. So, at the top of our Twitter page, on the Back Page pod on Twitter, I will post, I will pin this poll for as long as I can run it, because I know people download this episode, kind of like, new episodes people download gradually over a course of weeks, so it could take a little while for people to catch up, but we will address the results in a future episode. Matthew, should we take a quick break and then come back with our bonus categories to see us out? That sounds great. Welcome back to the podcast. So for this final section, there’s a bunch of bonus categories about our prospective new publishers to give people an idea of what we’re working on, that sort of thing. They’re basically like fun, silly questions. I will say that your criteria of what makes the publisher good should be based on the games, because this is gonna be some complete fucking nonsense. So, question one then Matthew, is what is the name of your publisher? Should we go with you first? So, I think I’m actually gonna keep it pretty simple. I’m gonna call it Matthew Castle Productions. Because I want my name to be on all this stuff that I’ve bought, and I want you to see and hear my name a lot when you’re playing these games. I just wanna be associated with them. I’m gonna be, my philosophy is I’m gonna be very hands on. I wanna be a big presence in this studio. I don’t wanna just be some suit. So like, you know, I kind of wanna give it like my personal like stamp of quality. And that is like putting my name on it. So yeah, I think Matthew Castle Productions. Okay. Yep. That’s, I honestly thought it would be funnier than that, but nonetheless. Oh, sorry. What were you? No, it’s fine. It’s, you know, it is. I could call it like fart box or something. If you’d rather, if that’s more what you were going for. I mean, you know, I’m sad that that’s the level at which you think I’m operating at, but, you know, nonetheless. You didn’t laugh at it. Yeah, I mean, only because I don’t expect you to make fart jokes. It hit me. Exactly. Caught me off guard. Anyway. But you’ve got to think like, it’ll say my name like quite loud. Yeah, right. So my one then, what is the name of my publisher? So, you know how there’s a Sega Sammy Holdings? That’s like the parent company for Sega. Mine’s going to be called Big Sammy Holdings Limited. So yeah, that’s what we’re going for. Matthew Castle sounds very dry now. It sounds like the kind of, you know how like when you were reading like, sort of Crash or Zap and then like, they had all these sort of really like boring sounding British developers. It’s got like a bit of a Dino-Dini vibe. Oh no, I’ve got to change it. No, it’s too late now. It’s too late now. Let’s move to the other category. Oh, I’ve committed to, oh, I just thought it was, I thought it would be like brilliant, and obnoxious having your name on it, but you’re right, it just sounds a little bit like budget and 80s. Yeah, I can imagine buying like a Games on Cassette from Matthew Castle Productions. Oh God. I mean, would you go to the Matthew Castle Productions E3 conference? Then again, Big Sammy Holdings is also there. Oh, you’ve got Holdings? Yeah, I just think- Holdings is not a set, like people are like, oh yeah, I love companies with Holdings in them. I’m sorry, but Sammy Holdings is a combination of words that’s so funny to me. I don’t know why, it just is. Let’s move to the next category, Matthew. Who hosts your E3 conference? So this was, I was talking about this Catherine last night, a great length and I was kind of annoying her a bit. Like I want to create like quite a big splash. Right. I think. So I don’t think it would be me, even though my philosophy is that like, you know, I am quite present. I’d probably be on stage, like on a chair or something, but it wouldn’t be me presenting it, but you’d have to look at me at some point of the show. I don’t necessarily want someone associated with gaming. I just want someone who’s like a really big international figure who’s quite impressive. Yep. So- Elon Musk. No, I was thinking like Barack Obama. Okay. That is not where I thought you would go with that. Okay. Yeah. Cause he’s quite famous. He’s a good talker. And I think he’s quite charismatic. Yeah. So probably that. Cool. So my three conference will be hosted by the very affable John Mulaney, who’s one of the best like awards show host there is. Made the sacrilege. Very different vibe. I think like a bit more fun. Oh God. I’m so bad at running a business. I can’t believe I’m asking a load of teenagers to tune in to Barack Obama. Tell them about the relaunch of Sing. I didn’t think this through at all. This is terrible. For the Matthew Castle Productions E3 conference. He’s like, you know him best from Hotel Dusk. The crowd’s like, ooh. Oh dear. I’ve really shat this out. Yours is already so much more fun. I also like that you insist on putting yourself on stage. You insist on being there. You don’t need to be there. I know because I’m instantly regretting it as well because I think the reception is going to be so frosty in the room that I’m just going to have to sit there and soak it up. I’ll be like, oh man, I wish I was back. That’s what’s going through my head while I sit on a throne. It’s like I wish I was backstage right now. Whereas I’m just going to have John Mulaney come up and say, hey, here’s GTA 6 to kick off the show. And then yeah, it’s you and a Barack Obama on stage. Yeah, guys, it’s Hotel Dusk HD. It’s so good. Well, there’s no reception. There’s no reception. Why did I pick Barack Obama? I thought that would be classy, but that’s not the energy of E3 at all. I almost picked Ben Affleck because the guy is like a living meme and he’d have got like memed over and over again, but I don’t think he’d embrace the subject matter enough. So Mulaney is a solid pick. He’s like a great award show host, Mulaney, as well. Very warm presence. But I can imagine him being quite down on gaming and gamers. Quite withering. I don’t know. Hello, nerds, he’d say. He’s not Joel McHale. He’s younger, he’s a millennial. He’ll get gaming more than Joel McHale does, for example. But he just seems like a nice guy. And he looks like that boy from The Flash. Anyway, let’s move on to the next category, Matthew. So who plays the concert at your three party? Please tell me it’s Randy Newman. Yeah, it is. Of course it is. I’ve got money to hire an artist to perform at something. Of course I’m going to hire an artist I actually like. And also, I actually think the package of… Like maybe if you knew Randy Newman’s also in the mix, like Obama seems less crazy. It’s a very class… The whole vibe is quite classy. If anything, the E3 conference has the energy of a sing game. Oh, yeah. I just… It’s like low energy. It’s like the energy of a very low light smoky jazz bar. Yeah. How old has Randy Newman been, Matthew? He’s quite old. He’s easily in his 70s, if not 80s. He is a 77 year old man. Yeah, but millennials love the songs from Toy Story. And even though I’m not a big fan, I would definitely get him to play some of them up top. Don’t you think that having songs from a 1995 animated movie is a bit baffling for an E3 conference? Not really. If everyone likes you, you’ve got a friend in me. It makes them think about being a kid again, and they’re like, oh, it’s the guy from Toy Story. That’s a bit more exciting because they’re like, who the fuck’s this? And they’re like, oh, it’s Toy Story guy. Okay. Well, okay. Well, that’s great. So we’ve got the Matthew Castle Productions E3 conference hosted by Barack Obama. Matthew Castle is on stage for some reason. And then, yeah, and Randy Newman is playing the concert after E3. That’s like amazing. Randy Newman, he, like, he’d descend from the roof. You know, except like the Xbox conferences, they always like drop a car from the roof from Forza Horizon. I’ve got Forza Horizon, so that would happen. But Randy Newman would also be in the car. Oh, that’s so good. I think he just accidentally like lurches it forward into the crowd. I think it all gets a bit dark. The light stream just cuts out with a picture of a puppy pulling out a wire. Sorry, I’m kind of inflicting too much of this on you. I’ve picked this a lot more straight, to be honest. I’ve picked Ludwig Goransson, the composer behind Black Panther, Tenor and The Mandalorian. And he could do a DJ set. I still think that’s quite dry. Okay, I’ll just go with my original choice, which was 80s electro rockers Depeche Mode. Gamers, I think, would like Depeche Mode. That feels like within their sort of bracket of like, you know, dweeb kind of music. Yeah, so a bunch of old men from Essex will do Enjoy the Silence at our conference, as well as other hits like Dream On and I Feel Loved. So yeah, that’s my choice there. That’s a bit funnier, I guess. Listen, your conference has got definitely more of a through line because they’re in like the Kojima Productions headspace. They’ve got this music. Kojima would like that choice. Yeah, I think so. Yes, Kojima’s like definitely big on Depeche Mode. Back when he used to read his blog in 2006, I remember him posting about him going to HMV and buying the Depeche Mode CD. God, that sounds like something that happened 400 years ago. To me, this just feels like you are now in the trap that Konami probably were in and that the rest of your life is going to be spent kind of keeping Kojima happy. Yeah, but I’ve also got all these other studios. If I have to use all of my GTA Online card DLC money to keep Kojima happy, I’ll fucking do it, my friend. I think you’ve got a harder group to work with. The rewards are potentially massive. But you do have to kind of play with it quite carefully. Yeah, I mean, you know, sure. Seeing aren’t going to kick off, they’re just going to be happy that they’re not unemployed anymore. That’s just going to be great. Everyone’s going to be impressed that they got to meet Obama. I’m excited about the Forza Horizon X Hotel Dust crossover event. That should be fun. Okay, let’s plough on them, Matthew. What’s the first project you approve as president of Matthew Castle Productions? I’m torn between what I mentioned earlier, which is an ongoing Hitman project. So just basically keeping me fed, a la season one of Hitman, but forever. I’d be quite up for that. But it’s probably got to be basically just giving Shootakumi a blank check. And it’s like, make your dream game. You have all of these people behind you. You can take any talent from any of the studios. You can really make something spectacular. I’d just let, yeah, it would be Takumi Unleashed. That’s a great combination of words. That’s my first decree. Well, we have well and truly ticked off of the Shootakumi Square from the Bingo card this episode. Okay, so my first project. Let’s see what it looks like when Rockstar makes a sci-fi game. That’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to see what a Rockstar open world sci-fi game looks like. Will it be somber? Will it be sort of like, you know, sort of like Dickheads in Space, like GTA? Who knows? But we’re going to find out, god damn it. I hope it is called Dickheads in Space. Yeah, at the very least, that will be on the in-game television. You can watch Dickheads in Space. Yeah, so I think that suits me. The original plan, like I say, was to buy Capcom and have post-Resi 4 Mikami have a run at Resi 5, but I can’t do that now, so I’ll just go with this. Yeah, that seems like a good use of my… I don’t want to mess things up too much as well because of the aforementioned time travel shenanigans. So, the final category. What would you give Clover Studio to do? Clover Studio, well, I would let them do whatever they want. I don’t think Mikami would make God Hand 2 because even he admitted that that was a bit too niche a proposition. So, I could see him… I don’t know, I kind of want basically… I guess we’re kind of looking at Vanquish here at Mikami. He likes making games that millions of people play. I could see him just making Vanquish for us. I’ll have to point out to him that Vanquish already exists and that he made it, so I’ll have to make something else. This is too confusing. You see, this is where the time travel really… At least we’re seeing that they’re not treading massively on the toes of what came after. But these guys, you absolutely are. You basically have to shepherd them down. They’re going to make the same decisions, because basically Clover Studios is kind of Platinum Games, so they’re going to make the same decisions. If anything, I think the second you bring these guys back to life, they’re going to leave and split off four Platinum Games again, and then there’s going to be two Platinum Games, which is going to be a nightmare. You’re going to be a studio down. The timeline’s going to be in chaos. I think you’re overthinking that too much. You’ve brought them at that headspace that they want to get out of there. But they didn’t leave Capcom. Capcom closed them, Matthew. So you just have to avoid making that mistake. Well, there you go. I do not accept your logic, sir. Let’s go to the final most important category. Who are the five people appointed to your board on Matthew Castle Productions? We agreed off air that this could be for both fictional people and real people. So what have you got, Matthew? I think I’m actually going to have Shutakumi on the board as this sort of head story guru. So he’s like Mr. Story. I’m going to employ acclaimed musician John Williams because he’s like the last person who wrote genuinely memorable theme tunes for film heroes. And you’ll know this is a big bugbear of mine. I want all of my games to have really killer theme tunes and that doesn’t mean John Williams is going to write them, but he is going to oversee it. He’s going to be like the head of themes. Right. So like tunes you can really hum. That’s what I want. Like the music in our games is going to be amazing, but I want him to kind of be there just to look over it. I did contemplate keeping Barack Obama around just because he’s classy. Right, okay, yeah. Agent 47. Okay, yeah, well so is that to like execute your rivals? Exactly. I’m thinking like big industrial espionage with this guy. Like his first job is basically to like mess up your whole deal. Like a violent enforcer. I know it’s pretty brazen to have your violent enforcer on the board. And that isn’t like accepted business smarts, but you know, whatever. The last one was difficult because Catherine was like, you should probably have someone who knows about business. And so I was trying to think of like fictional good businessmen or businessmen who I thought would like get the job done. So maybe like Brian Cox from Succession. Okay, right. He went with a TV character. Interesting. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I mean, he’s a bit of cantankerous and he might just urinate himself in the board room. Is that a problem? Well, yeah. I should really pass it on to one of his kids. But which one? It feels like there’s a concept of a show in that. Yeah, they should make that. It sounds good. Okay. Should I do my board? Can you do better than shoot a game of John Williams, Barack Obama, HF 47 and Demented Brian Cox from Subsection? Let’s see. So first up, we’ve got Isabelle from Animal Crossing. She knows business. Yeah. So a dog. Yeah. She’s like my CFO. If I’m Bill, she’s Hillary. You know, it’s going to work, I think. Wait, she’s your wife? Like, I didn’t mean it that way. But first, your first move. I meant in terms of the power dynamics more than like I’m actually in a relationship with a fictional dog. Whatever. Yeah, this is all getting a bit, sort of, 4chan, isn’t it? Let’s move on from that. Okay, next up we’ve got the riddler from the Batman Arkham Games is in charge of marketing. That guy gets fucking everywhere. We’ll be on every screen on the planet. Oh, that’s smart. That’s good. You’ve put more thinking to yours. We’ve got Raphael Colantonio, formerly of Arkane, the guy who said press sneak fucks. He’ll be a consultant, but he’ll also be on hand to shout press sneak fucks whenever I get bad coverage, which will be important. Not that I’ll get bad coverage because my developers are so good. So, yeah. He might have to cover up the whole dog marriage thing with it. He’s like, you press sneak fucks and they’re like, well, he did. I mean, that is a fact. He has done that. Oh, OK. I’ve got Dr. Mario on hand for medical emergencies. That’s, I’m sorry. Like, I don’t mean to like to be down on a lot of your picks. Dr. Mario is a terrible doctor. Like, his literal solution to illness is just to keep chucking pills at it, like, over and over again, until he either magically aligns the pills in your stomach and the viruses vanish, or the pills reach up to the top of you and you choke to death. Well, I don’t know, I mean, like, you know, his sort of, um, these days he’s moving more on to, like, um, wellness, and I think that would be good. Oh, it is more holistic. Yeah, I mean, good for people working, like, big kind of crunch hours, I think, which we’re trying to avoid on in this publisher. Yeah, so got Dr. Mare around for that. I think I’m also going to have, um, Kazhima as a consultant. We, we, the board acknowledges that 90% of the time he’ll be taking holidays to visit different developers and Mads Mikkelsen, but occasionally he’ll check in and do some work, and, um, we’ve decided that’s a net gain. So, um, that’s my board, Matthew. So, to wrap up, then, if people want to vote on this, you can go to our, um, Twitter page of Back Page Pod. That’ll be open at some, until some point in June. I’ll decide when, but, basically, for the foreseeable future, while you’re listening, you know. And again, base that on the studio picks, not the disastrous vision of E3 that I just described. Yep, uh, oh, good God, that was so funny. Oh, everyone, everyone, like, checking in to my E3 hotel, and everyone’s like, you go to the Randy Newman concert tonight, and I’ll be like, oh, I didn’t get a ticket, and they’ll be like, oh, email this PR, they’ll get you in. And I go there, and there’s, like, four people. Yeah, like, oh, Obama announced some game about a hotel? I don’t know. All right, yeah, so we hope you very much enjoyed this ludicrous competition, but we’ll discuss the winner in a future episode probably a few weeks down the line. So, yes, Back Page Pod, if you want to vote on that, you can also follow me on Twitter at Samuel W. Roberts. Where can people find you, Matthew? I’m at MrBazzill underscore pesto. If you’d like to send us an email, it’s backpagedgames.gmail.com, and we’ll be back next Friday with another episode this time about our E3 memories. So thank you very much for listening, and we’ll be back next week. Bye for now.