Hello, welcome to The Back Page, a video games podcast. I’m Samuel Roberts, and I’m joined as ever by Matthew Castle. Hello. Matthew, we’re joined by a returning special guest. Andy, do you want to reintroduce yourself? Hey, I’m Andy Kelly. Last time I was on this podcast, I was on PC Gamer. Now I’m on The Gamer. I just work in places with Gamer in the title now. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on, Andy. You’re a popular guest among our listeners, so we really appreciate it. So Andy is crowdfunding a book specifically about Alien Isolation on Unbound called Perfect Organism. I’ll share a link in the notes for this, but it’s unbound.com/book/perfect organism with a dash in the perfect organism. God, URLs are hard to read out of the podcast, but I’ll tweet it out anyway. So we’re gonna talk a bit about that. Then Andy’s gonna talk to us about the sort of the Dreamcast, one of our blind spots in the podcast. Some of our listeners say we don’t talk about Sega that much, which is fair enough. And I knew Andy had a bit of a soft spot for the Dreamcast. So hence I’m coming on this episode. But how are you doing, Andy? And what are you up to these days? What are you playing these days? I’ve gone wild for the Switch at the moment. I got a Switch OLED and all I’m doing is playing games on Switch at the moment. If it’s not on Switch, I’m interested. It’s one of my favorite consoles ever, specifically the OLED model, which has just got such a beautiful screen and such a delight to play stuff on. There’s a disgusting amount of good games on Switch at the moment. And I bought a massive memory card and it’s just heaving with stuff, cool indies. And so I’m playing a bit of Sunless Sea, playing a bit of Famicom Detective Club, which we talked about on the last time I was on. How are you getting on with that? Yeah, Famicom Detective Club. Yeah, really good. It’s such a crisp and beautiful looking and sounding game. I think the OLED really makes it sing in that regard. It’s beautifully presented. Andy, am I right in thinking you switched up from a Switch Lite at some point? Is that right? And then you upgraded to this model. Am I right in thinking that? Yeah, so as you can imagine, it’s a absolutely wild upgrade from that Switch Lite, which I convinced myself was fine and I was playing Breath of the Wild on it and then this is fine. And then I upgraded and I went, that wasn’t fine. That little murky LCD screen. And yeah, it’s like night and day. It’s amazing. That’s cool. Yeah, so Andy, like you writing a book about Alien Isolation makes total sense to me because in the time I were with you on PC Gamer, you wrote at least three or four features on Alien Isolation. Clearly had a big passion for the game. So do you want to talk a bit about your background with the game and why specifically you wanted to write a book about this game? Yeah, well, I remember when Chris Durston, formerly of PC Gamer, saw a preview event and he came back into the office with sort of breathless praise for what he’d just seen. And I think that sort of piqued my interest. And already being a huge fan of the film, from what he said, it was the alien game that I always wished someone would make. And then I ended up reviewing it for PC Gamer. Gave it 90 something. And yeah, I think that was the beginning of it. I think instantly I was like, this is a game that I just want to write about forever. It was kind of an instantaneous thing. Yeah, it did feel like significant on PC Gamer that we made it game of the year at the time. And then I remember there were some reviews like at Embargo that weren’t super full of praise for it. Like it was weirdly divisive, but it felt like we were kind of planting a flag in it. Like, no, this is what we kind of want from this kind of game. This sort of the unpredictable aspect of the AI, all that sort of thing. What are the kind of like different elements of the game, I guess, that sort of speak to you, that kind of still fascinate you eight years after it released? Well, I think in much the same way, I’m still watching the film on a fairly regular basis is the kind of production of it. So the actual craft of the look and feel and sound of it is the most compelling thing to me still. It’s still a game where it takes me forever to finish or make progress because I’m constantly stopping and staring at ducts and pipes and marveling at this sort of ridiculous fidelity of the world and how closely they mirrored the kind of aesthetic of the film. Like, I think artistically, it’s like one of the most impressive games I’ve ever played. So that’s one of the main things that keeps me coming back to it. Were you ever sort of bummed out they didn’t do a sequel? Do you think there was anywhere left to take it as someone who’s like a big fan of the Alien series? Yeah, I think that it should have been the starting point for like, you know, a trilogy or, you know, even just one more stealth games with the same spirit as that. You know, you could have transported it to a more, you know, you could have set it on Hadley’s Hope type colony on a planet or in a space prison like Alien 3 or whatever. I feel like that template was perfect for a million great Alien games, but it just sort of petered out, and most of the team who made Isolation have left that team. And so if they did make another one, it wouldn’t be quite the same because a lot of the most of the key players have jumped ship to other studios now. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, including No Code, right, which felt like a studio that kind of I know it didn’t entirely emerge from the wake of this game, but like it feels like the DNA of that of this game seems to live more in in those games than anything else. Do you think that’s fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. I’m a big fan of them of No Code stuff. Yeah. John McCallum was the lead UI artist on Isolation. So he did all the VHS and degraded video effects and retro futuristic UI stuff. So he started yet in this studio in Glasgow called No Code who did Stories Untold. It was kind of like a horror anthology based around like arcane ancient computers. Then he did Observation, which was like a vaguely 2001-esque game where you played an AI controlling a space station. And apparently they’re working on a third game now that’s like even bigger than the previous two. So they’re clearly doing well, you know. And I think Observation especially really does have like tons of the DNA of Isolation and its aesthetic and its pace and the kind of muted realism of the art. And the lead voice actor in Observation was like the character model for Amanda Ripley in Isolation. So there’s a lot of connective tissue there. But yeah, that’s the place to go to get a whiff of Isolation’s particular kind of magic. No interest in like an Alien’s Isolation where it goes like full action. You don’t want a kind of a continuation of like the sort of the film through line in your games. Well, they could. I remember before Isolation came out, dreaming out loud on Twitter about a stealth game where you play as Newt and Hadley’s Hope when everyone’s died and it’s all the aliens are running rampant and you’re this little girl, you know, running through the vents and stuff and trying to escape the aliens. Then they made Alien Isolation, which was that game minus the aliens theme. But yeah, I’d love to see like, I think if a developer captured the James Cameron 80s alien aesthetic in a similar way, I’d be well up for that. Like if, you know, they did the same back engineering, taking that film apart and making a new world with that look, I’d be well up for that. Are there any other of the alien games that you do like, Andy or Assem? I’m assuming Isolation wipes the floor with them, but like, I’m assuming you’ve got a long history with playing these. Are there any you’ve got fond memories of? I mean, maybe Alien 3 on SNES, which I had, even though it was sort of a grueling and quite unpleasant, miserable game. I kind of remember being quite compelled by the weird atmosphere of it. But yeah, really, I’ve played all of them and yeah, nothing comes even remotely close to Isolation, especially not, you know, the Colonial Marines era. I guess I didn’t really play the AVP games much. So they’re a bit of a blind spot for me. I’m not as interested in predators. I don’t want aliens versus anything. I just want alien on its own. Alien versus you. Yeah, exactly. So Andy, give us a breakdown of the book and how you’ve divided it up by chapters and sort of subjects. Is it kind of like all kind of like features or like criticism? Is there some dev interviews in there? How did you kind of approach like writing it? It started out as a pure making of book I wanted to write. But basically, because Disney now owns Alien, getting to write a making of book and get access to all the developers who are all NDA’d up to the eyes involves jumping through so many Mickey Mouse shaped hoops that I was like, forget about it, you know. So I, but then I am, there’s a, I don’t know if either of you watch Inside Number Nine, the TV show. I think Sam does enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steve Pambou and Rishir Smith released like a companion book to that. Episode by episode kind of background and full breakdowns and discussion kind of thing. And I was watching, I rewatched the show with the book. So I watched an episode and read the chapter in the book about that episode and sort of used it as a companion, which I really enjoyed doing. And I thought someone should do that for a game. And then I thought, why doesn’t my alien book become a companion? So the idea is that you can have it with you, you know, while you play for the game. I mean, you could do a level or a chapter and read that, you know, with the corresponding chapter of my book and for a sort of deeper understanding of it. So that’s kind of where it came from. So the main, the main thrust of the book is as a companion by someone who’s spent eight years obsessing over every detail of the game. So it’s kind of like a director’s commentary by not the director by, you know, sometimes I’m like a Blue-ray, you get like a commentary track by some like film nerd. That’s the kind of vibe I’m going for. Oh, that’s cool. I like that. So like what’s the example of like a chapter and how it kind of like relates to the game? Like how have you, is there kind of like one you’d highlight as an example of like, here’s how I’ve done it in the book, essentially? Each chapter of The Companion will like come at it from like every different angle or a bunch of different angles. So like they’ll be looking at it from a game design focus. So I’ll talk about level design, how certain set pieces are constructed, you know, like just kind of game design-y stuff that you’d say in a write about in a review. Another part of it and the part I’m most excited about is an artistic point of view. So I’ll be going through, pouring through every little environment, pointing out every piece of scenery that’s pulled out of the 1979 film and how they’ve reconstructed it. It’s even like all the technology, all the weapons, the costumes, like I’m going to go really deep into all that stuff and how it corresponds to the movie and what they create the assembly added of their own embellishments, that kind of thing. So the opening chapter of the game will like be a good example of all that because it’s such a, there’s no alien, but it’s such a scene setting, like our, where you’re starting a ship and then you end up on Sevastopol, the station where the game’s set against, you know, against your will and like it’s sort of, you’re drip fed the ambience of the game. So I think the companion chapter of that will like analyze it from a game design perspective and atmosphere, art, story as well, like, you know, what led to it and sort of unseen story stuff that the game doesn’t explain about what happened before the events of the game. So yeah, it’s basically like a, there’s no real like set structure to each chapter. It’s going to be just like, you’re going to come out of it with just a head full of stuff about every aspect of the game. And when the alien shows up, I’ll talk about the AI and, and things like that. So yeah, it’s just a big old explosion of alien isolation information. Has it been influenced at all by like, your reading around alien? Because I know that you kind of consume every bit of like, making of and behind the scenes media there is. Like, has that had an impact on like, how you’re approaching it? Yeah, well, I’ve read every alien making of book there is, including this huge one that came out not too long ago by I think JW. Rinsler, who does like some of the best making of books around. He wrote this really fat tome about the making of the original film. And yeah, I think I think I’d be writing about it. Like, I love those books like, there’s a book called Future Noir by Paul M. Salmon about Blade Runner. And it’s like a really in-depth analysis of Blade Runner, every aspect of it. Again, like I’m trying to do looking at art, sound design, behind the scenes stories, stuff like that. So it’s going to be like, yeah, it’ll be written like one of those like super deep making of movie books, but for a game. That’s so cool. That’s really cool. Yeah. So last time I checked, you’re about you’re over halfway funded. Is that is that right? Is that where you’re at currently? Yeah, I think 57% last time I checked. Awesome. So yeah, people want to go back the book, like I said, I’ll link it on Twitter, but follow Andy on Twitter, ultra brilliant as well. And I’m sure. And is it like your pin tweet or something? The book, I seem to Yeah, yeah, it’s the top of my thing. And if you pledge to it, you don’t just help me get it printed, but you actually pre-order a hardback copy. So it’s just basically like pre-ordering the book, but the pre-order money goes directly to, you know, actually getting the thing printed. Because Unbound, who I’m doing it with, are like a proper publisher, like they sell books in shops and stuff, but they just, instead of, they let people basically with passion for stuff, like getting, you know, who want to write a book about something and might have a hard time getting through a traditional publisher. Like I can’t imagine many publishers want to publish a book about an eight year old horror again, but through Unbound. Yeah, exactly. So through Unbound, it’s a good way to actually get the thing made. But yeah, I think, yeah, it’s at 57%. And I think it’s from what I’m hearing from people behind the scenes, it’s basically on track to get funded. But, you know, the sooner the better, because as soon as it’s funded, I can start writing it. And I’m just itching to write the thing. I’m playing through the game at the moment and filling a notebook full of notes. And I just want to, I want to, I really want to write this thing. Oh, exciting. So yeah, if that’s the sort of thing the listeners at home, then by all means, check it out and help Andy get this made. It sounds really, really cool. One question I did want to ask you about the game, Andy, because I’ve always been kind of fascinated by this, is how do you think this game is so long but remains so good despite its length? Because there are so many horror games that like a short, sharp shock, and that’s kind of like how they structure themselves. But this is like nearly 20 hour game. What do you think like the kind of magic is behind its pacing? How does it keep up the momentum? Well, that’s quite a thorny issue because some people think, a lot of people think it’s too long and think that it outstays its welcome. But then a whole other group of people like you think that it manages to maintain its quality for a long time. You could probably guess what camp I’m in. And I just think it mixes things up in a way that you can’t really get comfortable. So when you start to feel like you’ve worked out a rhythm, the game will mix things up either by throwing in like a more complex environment with more space that save points and hiding places or they’ll sometimes the alien behavior changes as well. So there’s that dynamic element of it never being a prescribed game. It’s a game that feels different literally every time you play it. So there’s that aspect and in bits where like you know, you get a brief respite from the alien and you can run around and use your guns without alerting it for a bit of cathartic working-jewel shotgunning. It’s like a nice break from the tension before you inevitably go back and then towards the end they mix things up again by introducing another alien and yes, I mean for me it’s a very varied game. Some critics say that it’s quite, you know, it’s just the same thing over and over again hiding in cupboards for 20 hours but I never got that from it. Yeah, for sure. I think it just allows you to build this long ongoing kind of player relationship with the alien as an entity, like both when it’s there and it’s not there. It kind of like mimics the feeling in the film where Ripley’s never quite gotten rid of it. That’s, you know, that’s sort of like the length does that to me a little bit. Matthew, what are your thoughts on Alien Isolation? Because I think we discussed it briefly before but do you have a kind of like a sort of read on it from your side? My read on it is I actually haven’t finished it. Too long for you then? Yeah, not because it was too long or I didn’t like it. I genuinely found it like too intense to kind of get through in the end. I think it’s one of the very rare horror games where like the monster doesn’t really lose its potency. Like I think a lot of horror games depend on the fear of getting caught or the fear of dying or the fear of what’s going to happen. And then once that thing has happened, like once you’ve died a few times or, you know, once you’ve been killed by the big thing a couple of times, you kind of overcome that because you’re like, oh, well, I now know what’s in store for me. And, you know, for whatever reason, you know, how, you know, how many from, you know, perhaps that kind of like Andy says, that kind of amazing alien behaviour. I never really felt like you could get that foothold in this game. Like it somehow holds its tension, even though this thing is getting you a lot, because that’s normally what kills horror games is when you do die a lot and you do die. Well, I did die a lot in this. So, yeah, it’s just it’s a stressful experience. I do need to go back and replay it. I have put back to your book, Andy, and I need to finish this game so that I can see it through to the end and get my own kind of catharsis. So, Andy, I know there are some games you kind of like properly go to bat for just from my experience of working on Piece of Gamer, the likes of LA. Noire, Alan Wake, Euro Truck Simulator 2. Are there any other games that you would consider writing a book about or that you’ve thought about writing a book about? You said Alan Wake there. And speaking of Remedy, I would love to do something similar with Max Payne. I feel like that’s a game that I play with a similar level of admiration of the detail and the themes and the art and the storytelling and stuff. I mean, specifically the first two games, like I like Max Payne 3, but 1 and 2 feel like such a… they’re so imprinted with Remedy’s idiosyncrasies and strange approach to game making that, yeah, I’d love to do something on like Max Payne, even if it’s just like some kind of, you know, like those books where it’s just a big long interview, like I just love to talk to Sam Lake for, you know, a week and turn that into a book, but yeah, I’d like to do something on Max Payne. Have you reviewed Max Payne 3, Andy, because I know you reviewed it at the time. You got that famous letter from a reader. Have you gone back to it? Because we did a podcast about it a little while ago. With mouse control, it’s like way better than I remember it being on console. Did you, have you ever gone back to it, have you changed your mind about it at all? Yeah, I mean, when I reviewed it, I was like semi lukewarm on it, but I actually revisited it. I think it was two weeks ago when it was the 10th anniversary. I replayed the airport level, just to remind myself of how good it was and yeah, like it still looks great on PC and yeah, like you said, it just feels great with a mouse and keyboard. I don’t, I think it lacks a lot of the quirks and as I said, idiosyncrasies of the Remedy games. It plays it a little bit too straight. I miss the kind of lynching undertones and weird mythological undercurrents and all that. Like the Rockstar took it and just kind of made like a kind of Tony Scott action film, which is fine. Like it’s good in that sense, but I missed the weirdness. Do you like Health’s incredibly overrated soundtrack? Well, I mean, the airport scene is where that soundtrack peaks when that song comes blasting in as you’re killing SWAT troops. But yeah, I do love that soundtrack. I love Health as well. I won’t do my Health bit. It’s just one drum. That was Matthew’s take on it, basically, Andy. Andy, is there anything else you want to say about the book before we take a little break and come back and talk about the Dreamcast a little bit? Anything else that’s kind of worth highlighting? Well, yeah, I mean, I spoke about the core of it, which is the companion. But as well as that, there’s going to be tons of stuff on the making of it because I’ve spent I’ve written making all features about it for a bunch of outlets and I’ve talked to a lot of the devs, you know, many times over the years. So there will be behind the scenes making of because it’s an unofficial book, I can talk about all the uncut all the cut content data miners have pulled out of it. And so there’s like a big lost intro sequence that never made it into the game and stuff like that. So like surrounding the companion, there’s going to be tons of stuff about going deep on the AI, the design of the alien, the arts, of course, will be like there’ll be a whole chapter on the art as well as the artistic side of the companion thing. So it’s basically just I mean, there’s a full chapter breakdown on the on the page, but it’s yeah, it’s going to be pretty exhaustive and it’s a big thick hardback book as well. So it’ll be it’ll feel pretty premium. That’s awesome. I’ll make sure I back that Andy because it’d be pretty rude to have you on the podcast and not back it myself. Thanks. Appreciate it. No problem. Siphon some money out of the Patreon fund. Yeah, declare it as like a tax thing. No, not at all. It’s great. Okay, awesome. Well, let’s take a quick break then and we’ll come back and talk about the Dreamcast a little bit handy. Welcome back to the podcast. So in this section, Andy’s gonna talk a bit about the Dreamcast, and me and Matthew is interested on Lookers, they’re gonna basically throw questions at him and talk a little bit about it. So Andy, what’s your personal history with the Sega Dreamcast? And were you a big Sega guy at the time, in the 90s, before it came along? Well, I sort of alternated between Sega and Nintendo, but by the time the Dreamcast came, I think I flipped back to Nintendo. But I had a bit of a weird history of the Dreamcast, where when it was in its heyday, I didn’t own one, but I knew someone who had one that was away basically every weekend. So I got it on weekends, because I basically couldn’t afford one, because they were pretty pricey at the time. So there’s some gaps in my knowledge of the games, purely because I was beholden to this guy whose Dreamcast it was. So whatever he had, I had basically. Now I own one and I’ve still got one under my TV, and I still play it, but back in the golden day, the very brief golden era, I was a sort of weekend Dreamcaster. What sort of games did that person have? What kind of games did you have access to at the time? Did they have good taste? Yeah, well, that’s it. I’m glad that they did. So there’s a few blank spots in my Dreamcast knowledge. So people was going about Skies of Arcadia, which I know I’ll like because I love a JRPG. And that’s a blind spot for me, because for whatever reason, he didn’t buy that. But basically every other big Dreamcast game, and I don’t want to spoil my top five too much, but he was pretty on top of stuff. So I played all the big hitters, including my number one game, which I’m delighted that he bought because it’s a game I still play and love now. Well, enough about Sonic Adventure 2. So anyway, yeah, I’m just joking, of course. So Andy, why do you think the console has such a strong reputation in retrospect? What’s kind of giving it its cult appeal over time? I think there’s a bit of a melancholy, bittersweet side to the Dreamcast because it was the end of Sega’s hardware days. But there’s also that kind of candle burning twice as bright for half as long thing because it was sort of alive for such a brief amount of time. I think that has added to its legacy a bit. So I feel like it was like a special little blip on the sort of history of games timeline, a beautiful little blip that just sort of burped and faded away, and that was the end of it. So I think that’s definitely added to the, in hindsight, love for it, which obviously wasn’t given at the time because it destroyed Sega’s hardware dreams. But yeah, I think that’s a big part of it. I think that something I always sort of thought was exciting about the Dreamcast was the fact that of all the consoles Sega made, this felt like the one that caught up with what their arcade hardware was able to do and to bring the side of the Sega arcade experience I found the most interesting over to the console. Was that kind of appealing to you? Were arcades like a part of your life at the time? Yeah, not at all actually. Yeah, I know about how the Dreamcast was like the arcade player’s home console of choice, but I’ve never really been into arcade games. I’m into sort of story stuff or puzzly or rhythm stuff. So yeah, I mean, that would be reflected in my top five, but yeah, I didn’t really use the Dreamcast as like an arcade console. I didn’t really play many beat-em-ups on it or shoot-em-ups or anything like that. Right, right, yeah, that’s fair enough. Looking back on the library of games on the console, Andy, what do you think its strengths and weaknesses are? I think it had a lot of unique, bespoke, very Dreamcast games and a lot of extremely Sega games, but outside of that, I think it kind of failed to have the breadth of, for example, PS2’s library, which was one of the broadest libraries of any console in terms of variety. But I think the Dreamcast was quite narrow in its field of what kind of games it had on it. And it often didn’t have versions of multi-platform games or had inferior versions. So I think its library didn’t really thrive as much as it could have in its brief lifespan. Like I was kind of curious, when you bought your Dreamcast, what kind of games did you try and hoover up? Did you have a list? Have you got a collection that you’re quite happy with these days? Yeah, well, I bought one when I bought one, it was in pristine nick and it’s not turned yellow yet, which I’m absolutely amazed by because most Dreamcasts have gone yellow because of the weird fire-proofing chemicals they put in the plastic, but mine’s are still beautiful, light grey thing. And I, you know, it runs perfectly as well. And I’ve not had any issues with it. It just makes a hell of a lot of noise, but I think it always did. When the drive’s whirring, it’s actually quite deafening after sort of tuck it at the back of the TV unit to not hear it. But yeah, when I got one, I basically just played everything. Apart from a few, like I said, Skies of Arcadia is one that’s a blind spot and Power Stone as well, which people absolutely love. I never really got into that. I’m not like a much of a collector. I do a bit of the old CD burning. If I want to play somewhat obscure in Japanese, because as you know, the Dreamcast is incredibly, laughably easy to just burn a CD and play it. It has no copy protection or anything to speak of. Right, yeah. In reality, you’ve got no excuse not to have played Skies of Arcadia. I know. As I’m saying that, I’m thinking, I mean, I’ve actually got it. I think I know this somewhere. Maybe this is my time to finally play Skies of Arcadia 20-something years later. This feels like something I would do, like just I’d have like three different sort of like CDRs with the Skies of Arcadia burned onto it. Like one day I’ll get around to this and kind of never do. I had it on GameCube and then I traded it in, which is really dumb because it’s worth loads these days. 600 pounds in CEX or whatever. Never mind. That was, it was your version of Bitcoin, Matthew. I can’t believe I got rid of my one copy of Skies of Arcadia, but I’ve still got 20 packs of Borderlands 2 top trumps. Mnestic. Andy, I was kind of curious. Do you think that like when people talk about how ahead of its time the Dreamcast was, there’s something in that in terms of the online play and stuff, how kind of like ahead of the curve do you think the console truly was? Well, still, I think the network thing was obviously huge. The fact that you could just plug a ethernet cable into it without sticking a big brick on the back like the PS2. Yeah, the fact that you could, I mean, but the VMU still feels like the future to me, even though it’s rubbish. It’s just a stupid Tamagotchi sticking your controller. But just the idea of games being outside of the console, like unplugging your VMU and looking after your chaos or whatever the hell it was in Sonic Adventure and the playground, that feels like quite a fog-thinking thing to me, like the idea of games leaking out of your front room. It smacks of one of those things which is kind of there at launch and then the 10 launch games support it and then basically no one ever does it ever again. A bit like the kind of cool haptics on the PlayStation controller or like any of the kind of Wii DS kind of interplay that never really kind of came to anything. But yeah, I was always quite kind of envious of that one. I should say like I’ve only ever, like I’ve never owned a Dreamcast. It’s a huge, huge blind spot for me. And like I kind of lived it entirely, sort of vicariously through games master reviews and just looking at pictures and images of it. Sam, did you actually, have you owned one ever? No, I haven’t, it’s too much to my shame. I sort of like, what was kind of weird is a lot of the kind of like key bits of it got kind of picked off and divided between the different consoles that followed. So I had an Xbox, a PS2 and so like, you know, I played games like Headhunter and Res and then like, you know, like Shenmue 2, I played on Xbox and stuff. But yeah, I kind of missed out on sort of having one. Andy, do you think like the, was the kind of the VMU stuff kind of continued throughout the lifespan? Do you know, were there any kind of like interesting later uses of it or did it kind of peter out? Yeah, like Matt said, it became just like an animated little character that would like, you know, jump in the air when you jumped or, you know, reflect. It was like a health monitor and Resident Evil and stuff like that. Like very gimmicky, not actually very useful stuff. But I think just, I just like the idea of it. I still got a VMU set on my desk. I just like it as an object. It’s so nice. That’s the whole Dreamcast design. I still love even that stupid controller and the, I think the actual console itself is like a, quite a beautiful little compact, tasteful thing. How does it kind of fare on a HDTV these days? You’ve got like a cable for it that makes it look all right. Yeah, no, not really. I just play it through the composite cable. Even though you can get like really nice cables that put like a clean image and convert it to HDMI. I sort of don’t mind the grubbiness of the image. Like I feel like that’s how I remember the Dreamcast. Like not looking completely pristine in high res. I’m all for playing old games, looking like sort of in the original resolution. Like the Shenmue remasters that came out recently. Like they look great in 4K, but there’s also an option to play in the original resolution. And I play in that because it just looks like the Dreamcast to me. Like I think that’s part of it, you know, the aesthetic. Yeah, some of those Shenmue NPCs weren’t meant to be seen in 4K, I would say. Are you hoping they do a Dreamcast Mini at some point, Andy? Or do you think it has enough great games to do 20? Yeah, I think you’d be pushing it if you were gonna pick, you know, some of the mini consoles, you could easily pick 20, you know, legitimately all time great games. But I think the Dreamcast’s library kind of fizzles out if you had like maybe 10 or 15 really great, proper classics. I think outside of that, I mean, it’s an excuse to just put a load of deep cuts and interesting stuff on there. I’d probably still buy one. It is a lot of fighting games and shooting maps. Yeah, lots of 3D brawlers. Yeah, I’ve been watching a lot of lists for it. And so, you know, like I think I’ve got like a reasonable grasp of like the, you know, the big hits of Dreamcast, but it was interesting going and watching, you know, I’ve been watching a lot of like Sega channels on YouTube, these last, you know, the last few days. It’s absolutely fucked my algorithm. And it’s going to bring me a world of pain going forward. It seems like if you are into shoot them ups or fighting games, like, which I would say like, there’s probably a lot of kind of crossover in the kind of people who are into both, maybe explains like amplified love for this, or those particularly noisy corners of the internet, which make the Dreamcast maybe feel like a bigger, bigger deal because it’s so kind of ticks a couple of boxes in a way that like nothing else does. Yeah, so I was gonna say actually on that subject, do you think Andy that all of its best games have been kind of pilfered and put onto kind of new platforms? Or do you think like there’s still a bunch that are sort of trapped on there? Obviously, Skies of Arcadia is like a big one, but do you think most of these games now are easy to play on other formats? Has like the magic of the Dreamcast been sort of like transferred elsewhere at this point, do you think? Yeah, well, I’m looking at my list of, by top five in my honorable mentions, and I think all but three have been ported and possibly, you know, basically improved on other consoles and through re-releases of ports. So I think, I mean, I think maybe Shenmue was like the last game people would buy a Dreamcast for. And I, as part of a big reason why I bought one as well to play that and, you know, to be able to play that now. But since that really exceptionally good remaster that came out recently, I probably won’t play it on the Dreamcast again, especially with that original resolution option that does a good job of filling you in and thinking you’re playing it on the old hardware. Not buying a second hand unit for Blue Stinger. That’s the two games I remember from Games Master for some reason, Shenmue and Blue Stinger. With that like really bad render of a guy with a beard and like a handkerchief on his head. Yeah. It comes up a lot like when consoles like Bifit, people then say like, well, is this going to be a bit of a Dreamcast? You know, there was a bit of a conversation around like, is Wii U kind of a bit of a Dreamcast? I don’t think it is. Like, I don’t think it has the like, I don’t think it had the breadth or depth in the same sort of time, you know, because it’s basically around the similar length of time as the Dreamcast. And I don’t think it got there. Dreamcast seemed a lot more kind of idiosyncratic, had way more exclusives, you know, it like, it burned like my impression from from, you know, looking into it is that it burned super bright in a way that I just don’t think the Wii U ever did, which is a shame for anything. I’d say of all the consoles since, even though it’s a very different sales story, like the Wii has some Dreamcast energy in that it feels because of like the tech gulf between it and the rest of the generation, people are kind of forced to make exclusive things for it. So it gets like quite a big library of games that aren’t on another machine. They’re very like Japanese focused, a lot of Japanese publishers doing it and making cool stuff. Also like not being scared of like weird peripherals and making peripherals that maybe support only one game is kind of part of the Wii ethos. You know, looking at them, I was like, I just got a similar energy from their two libraries, albeit one is like sold like 100 million copies or whatever. What do you, what do you reckon, Andy, is there any kind of Dreamcast energy in any other consoles that kind of followed or is it a kind of real one off in that respect? Yeah, to me, to me, part of its appeal is that it’s just very of its in its own little bubble. I mean, it’s like a, it’s weird to be talking about it so fondly when it was like a failure on a massive degree to the point where it made Sega never want to make a console again. Like it’s like a beloved failure. I mean, maybe that’s part of its appeal as well, everyone likes a scrappy underdog. Yeah, for sure. Well, we might as well get to your top five then, Andy, because we first of all, we’ve got some honorable mentions I’d love to fire through. So me and Matthew haven’t seen your top five. So I suppose like in picking this, was it easy for you to select a top five out of the slot? Were you kind of certain going into it what was the important stuff was? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I think, as I said, my top five will have maybe some Dreamcast purists going like, why the hell is that in there? But it’s because I had such a weird introduction to it that the games that I played were kind of chosen by someone else. But as a result of that formative period playing it, they’re the ones that I think of the most fondly. So yeah, why don’t you hit us up with your first honorable mention, Andy? So, Metropolis Street Racer, is that right? Yeah, of course. Yeah, Project Gotham was kind of a successor, right? Yeah, it was kind of like the seed that grew into the Gotham games. Yeah, it was the first bizarre creations racing game and it was exclusive to Dreamcast as well, which made it feel a little bit extra special, but it just had the great kudos system in it, which I always loved, where you get sort of schooled as you play based on your sick driving skills. It was kind of open world as well, where it had like three cities in it, I think London, Tokyo and somewhere else, and all the tracks were sort of built inside this open, semi-open world. So there was like 200 plus tracks, you know, all cobbled together inside these cities. I think I remember being really like in that kind of side of it. Was that like the first game to do something like that? Because I suppose like Burnout Paradise is the kind of next stage of that sort of thing. But was there anything else around at the time that was doing that kind of sort of blend of like tracks inside an open world? Or was that game kind of the first? Yeah, I think I might be wrong here, but I’m pretty sure it was the first to do that in a kind of notable way. And I think the future, I think the Project Gotham Games has all did something similar where the tracks would all be created inside kind of cities and sort of semi-open environments. But yeah, Metropole Street Racer, I remember being blown away by how it looked. I had looked at a YouTube video today and it probably hasn’t held up that well, but I remember at the time being really amazed by the kind of fidelity of it and the lighting and the sort of ambience of it. I think those devs always give the racing games a real distinctive atmosphere and this was similar. Is this the game you were worried about pissing off for Dreamcast Hard Cause by not bringing in your list, Andy? No. Is it more of a photorealistic thing or is it kind of more of an arcade-y kind of city? Yeah, it’s photorealistic as far as the Dreamcast could manage. I think it looked, I don’t think it looked quite as good as some of the PS2 era Gran Turismo’s but it had its own look. I remember just loving the way it looked. That’s cool. So what’s your next number we’ll mention, Andy? Choo Choo Rocket. Did it come with the online something or other this I seem to recall? Yeah, when you signed up for, what was it called, Dream something, which was like Dreamscape, it was basically the online subscription service and you got a dream key in the post which is a CD that you stick in your Dreamcast and that lets you go through the getting online process and on the other side of the dual case of your dream key was Choo Choo Rocket which was online enabled, but I didn’t really play it online, I just enjoyed it as a solo player and it’s, I don’t know if you remember, but it’s basically a puzzle game about guiding, what are they, they’re either rats, mice or rabbits, I can’t remember, you’re guiding them away from cats, so it’ll be mice, you’re guiding mice away from cats into rockets so they can escape from the cats in the rockets. Yeah, that’s cool. And it’s like one of those puzzle games was like an endless flow, kind of like a Lemmings-esque flow of mice on the screen, you’ve got you set up like barriers and stuff to guide them around away from the cats. Good puzzle game. That’s cool. Yeah, I do remember coveting this, seeing on like, seeing the case for it or like something for it in a game and thinking that sounds awesome, that like, you sign up to this online thing, you play this game that you only get by getting this thing. Until it came out in Game Boy Advance a little while later, but yeah, that’s super cool. Did you ever play much Dreamcast online, Andy, or was that kind of a side of it? I guess you, if you’re playing it on weekends, maybe you didn’t have the same access to it. Yeah, well, sometimes I’d go around to a friend’s house, I had it all hooked up and I’d play Quake 3 Arena, which was, I mean, at that point I had a PC and I was playing Quake 2 on my 56 game old M, so it wasn’t as mind blowing, but it was still, I remember feeling weird sitting with a controller playing Quake on a TV and not sat on my computer, which is totally normal now and you can plug a PC into any screen you can imagine, but yeah, I remember that being quite a novelty. That’s cool. I associate this period of time with reading about online play and online play being a thing which more and more people were doing, but also knowing that my parents were like incredibly strict about internet usage in our house because it was so expensive and then we’re thinking like, wow, who could ever go online? Who could ever be online with a thing? Like we were lucky, we would get 10 minutes of online access or something, we’d kind of bankrupt the family. So the idea of it, I’ve always thought, wow, it seems so opulent. Maybe that’s me. No, it seemed like that for me too. I used to have like an hour of dedicated online time a week and I would just browse the LucasArts website over and over again because I was a very dull child. What’s your next honorable mention, Andy? Well, I’ve got one more and it’s one that people might expect to see in the top five, but it’s Crazy Taxi, the original game. I think that’s the only thing that you mentioned earlier about it. The Dreamcast has been a great console for arcade conversions. I think Crazy Taxi is the one I played that really had that arcade feel. Crazy Taxi is not one of my favorite games, but I appreciate the really wild energy of it and the brightness of it and the Sega blue skiesiness of it and obviously the great soundtrack and the weird product placement with tarot records on every street corner. It’s just a very flavor of Dreamcast game for me. When I think of Dreamcast, images of Crazy Taxi come screeching into my brain. Yeah, it’s on so many formats these days, but I’m pretty sure you have to mod the PC version to get the original soundtrack and textures and stuff in. I have done that and it is worth it, I will say. No, that’s cool. Did you see that tweet you did the rounds recently, Andy, that was the map of Crazy Taxi and laid out the fact that it’s basically just a circuit that you’re doing and not an open world as it tricks your brain into thinking it is? Did you see that doing the rounds? No, I didn’t see that, but that sounds weird because in my head it is like a big sprawling San Francisco-esque network of streets. It’s like one big loop with maybe a cluster of side streets at like three points. So how did they do that? How did they fool us all? I don’t know. Maybe it’s because you go back and forth, back and forth and like it kind of it reorients you so many times you don’t think about it, but yeah, I’ll send you the link after this. It’s just the stress, the stress of trying to deliver people to their destinations. You don’t really have time to pass the world. You’re so focused on that big fucking arrow that you’re just like, oh shit, I’ve got to get there. They seem like a series they could never quite nail in the like again in any kind of meaningful way to in terms of like the second one was kind of the same thing again. And then the third one wasn’t very well liked at all on Xbox, the Vegas set one. So, yeah, I don’t know, this yeah, definitely this I associate this as a big kind of like Dreamcast game. And now you can play on anything, like I say, but without the original soundtrack. A quick question about about Sega and this is just a sort of memory thing. The whole kind of Sega aesthetic blue skies thing that feels like it started being celebrated after the fact. Like I don’t remember people talking about these games in this way at the time. And I don’t know if that’s just my bad memory or like the fact that I was just reading Games Master and they weren’t talking about these games in this way. But it feels like a look that is now cherished. Is that wrong? I think people always knew it was that and loved it. But UK Resistance with its blue skies campaign articulated why we liked it kind of thing. Like it’s one of those things where someone says something and you go, oh yeah, I’ve always thought that, but I just never had it articulated in a way that I can say it. So I feel like it highlighted something that was always there. That’s the feeling I get. But that could be pure blinker. Yeah, that feels legit. So I remember reading that sort of term after the fact and then it instantly just being absorbed into my vocabulary and I talk about Sega Beast guys all the time, but yeah, that’s probably it. It could well be that. It’s very influential. Yeah, it’s good. So it is a really good way of boiling down, you know, like all your, what you can remember of these different games from Outrun to Sonic the Hedgehog and stuff. So yeah, it works really well. So Andy, we come to your top five, what’s the fifth game on your list? This is one people might be thinking, why is this in the top five? But it’s the game that made me originally lust after a Dreamcast when I saw it running in one of those plastic sealed off display units in Virgin Megastore or something. Ready to rumble boxing. Anyone remember that? Yeah, it’s called Afro Thunder. Afro Thunder Boris Bonkamoff or whatever he’s called. It doesn’t sound like top five material, but hear me out. Well, yeah, it was developed by Midway, I think, and it was basically super punch out for Dreamcast, with ridiculous, possibly offensive racial stereotype characters and slightly cartoonish approach to it. It had some of the best wounding and bruising I’ve ever seen in a boxing game. By the end of a match, you’d turn your opponent into a splatter of various colours. I don’t know if either of you remember at the time all the talk about how amazing the facial damage tech was. Vaguely, yeah. Kind of vaguely recall it, but I don’t remember this. It’s kind of cartoonish though, right? Like fat lips and things. Yeah, it’s like, yeah, it’s not like Knockout Kings or something, like a realistic boxing game. It’s not like you’re having to cut your eyelids open so you can see. Yeah, it’s just, you know, biffing someone on the head and a big exaggerated, you know, bruise forming or whatever, but I mean, that was purely like a thing to get games magazines excited and people like me in the Virgin Megastore watching it on the display unit and being amazed by it. But I just, I played a hell of a lot of it because it was one of the first games the person whose Dreamcast I kept borrowing got, because it was a launch game, I think, I’m pretty sure it was. And it’s just like a really fun arcadey boxing slash beat them up. And if you watch clips of it now, like the impact, I remember the impacts feeling really satisfying. And it’s got some of the most like, almost semi cartoonish, like fist meeting face sound effects. Like it’s just like a real, it’s got like a real tactile feel to it. Like you can really feel the weight of the punches. And there was like the rumble meter where if you like, after success of blocks and punches, you spelled out the word rumble, which then let you pull off like kind of exaggerated flurries of punches, specific to each character. But I mean, it’s just, I remember it just been a really like fun, weighty, satisfying beat them up with like some graphics tech and that made me, made me want a Dreamcast and made people, I remember there was people talking in school about, have you seen this? You can, you can make a guy’s eyes swell if you hit them really hard. And that being like a selling point. Midway actually feel like a good fit for Dreamcast. You know, as like an, you know, another kind of arcade company, albeit like this, of the US almost like the US counterpoint to sort of Sega, it feels like they kind of got it or that this is a time they could sort of flourish. They’re a company who didn’t really like, well, you know, they died. So they didn’t, it felt like they never really learned how to exist in the true post-arcade world. Yeah. Scott, I think you’re going to say Toy Commander when you started talking about the in-store demos. That’s what I remember on Dreamcast. Going around like a kitchen in like a little plastic heli-coaster. Yeah, that and Reddit rumble were like the Virgin Megastore go-tos for selling Dreamcasts. Yeah. And the fact that neither of them are now considered classics, it’s probably a clue that why the Dreamcast didn’t quite build an audience. Well, you know, if you have anything to say about the Dreamcast mini, Andy, then I’m sure this will be straight on there. Oh, definitely. It’s a great two-player game as well. Yeah, that’s great. There can’t be many people praising that game in 2022, so I’m pleased to hear it. So what’s your number four? Number four is probably a more common pick, Space Channel 5. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. Did this one ever come on other formats or was it just a sequel that got bought elsewhere? Yeah, I think the original was on PS2. So what was the kind of magic of this one for you? When you break it down, it’s an incredibly simple game. It’s just a game of Simon Says. Aliens appear in front of you. They say commands, you match the commands. And by doing so, you shoot the aliens or you rescue hostages. So it’s like that thing of… It’s like those shooting galleries where terrorists pop up and then little girls holding a teddy bear pops up and you’ve got to not shoot the little girl. It’s like that, but in a rhythm game format. It’s Tetsuya Mizuguchi’s baby. Like he is one of his earlier rhythm games. And I think he… And it sounds very 2001 or 1999 or whenever the game came out, but Sega wanted him to make a game that would appeal to women. And so Space Channel 5 is like the result of that. But I guess that made it feel quite different from other games that were floating around at the time because it’s got quite a distinctive feel to it. But it’s just a great rhythm game with like an amazing soundtrack that I still listen to now, like proper good music. What makes up for the simplicity of it is just the constant changing of scenery around you. It used the very late 90s thing of having FMV, pre-rendered FMV with 3D models on top. So the environments are constantly changing and the music’s evolving as you play. And like it’s just like a real like treat for the senses. Yeah, it feels like the iconography of this one has endured give or take a Michael Jackson pastiche. But yeah, it’s definitely visually distinctive. Yeah, I was gonna say it’s got like a mix of like, the art is like a 60s vision of the future, like which I think like vintage visions of the future is an aesthetic a lot of games do now. Obviously Fallout being a prime example, but I think yeah, like that 60s look to it, like all sort of rounded and colorful and like the fashion of Ulala and all crazy followers like it just looks incredibly good. It’s kind of like the fifth element as a game. It’s got that same kind of colorful, weird, slightly French sci-fi feel to it. What is the music in this? Is it poppy? Is it dancey? Is it like your typical kind of Mitsuguchi stuff or? Well, it’s similar to the way of the sort of the kind of vintage Thorback aesthetic. It’s very 60s. I think that they based the whole soundtrack around like an old piece of music from the 60s, like a very like something you’d hear like between programs on Radio 1 in the 60s, like I can’t remember what the piece is called, but it’s like by someone called like Brian Johnson and his Piccadilly Orchestra or something. So they took this old like Austin Powers ass piece of music and that became the theme for Space Channel 5. I don’t know why they found this piece of music, but so the whole soundtrack is like, what’s the word, a leitmotif of that piece of music. So it’s all big brass instruments. And then it’s like it mixes old 60s Austin Powers music. I can’t think of a better way to describe it, but with like late 90s, very 1999 dance music and electronic. But it’s not as overt the electronic as a lot of music which you games. It’s like kind of orchestral, funky orchestral music with a kind of background. I like that thing about like the band name. That’s so spot on. It’s always, it’s when you look up like the Grandstand theme tune and you find out that it’s actually like got a name and it was played by a band like that. I’m big into those kind of big band vibes. That’s fun. Yeah, yeah. Big Dave’s Orchestra kind of like. Yeah. A song called Fancy Lady or something. Amazing. What’s your number three, Andy? Number three is another Mizuguchi joint. I don’t know if that’s what he calls his games, but it’s res. Of course, yeah. The old classic. Did you have the old, people make the same joke over and over again about the trance, wherever it’s called, vibration thing. Yeah. It was PS2 only, the trance vibrator. Ah. Wasn’t on Dreamcast. That’s why the Dreamcast died. Res is res, isn’t it? I think it’s a game that’s still now played and held up as an example of maybe some of Mitsuyoshi’s best work. I think I played more of it on more of the HD version than on Dreamcast, but I played a lot of it on Dreamcast at the time. And I just think it’s a lot more of a game than Space Channel 5. Space Channel 5 is just tapping buttons in response to a thing on the screen, whereas Rez is more of like a shoot-em-up. That really is so satisfying still when you drag that cursor over a bunch of different enemies and you hear that clicking noise of successful lock-ons. And then you let go and you’re volley of anti-viral computer, I don’t know what it is, computer pixels fly out and kill the viruses. It’s one of the best games in terms of feedback and feel, and especially the way it all syncs up to the music and that married with the sort of psychedelic visuals and the whole concept of like invading virus-ridden computer systems. Like it’s such a… There’s nothing I don’t like about REZ. Like it’s really, apart from it gets quite difficult as it goes on. But I mean, all of these rhythm games are really punishing. Like Space Channel 5 is horribly difficult to play. You have to really get into like a real mindset to play it. But yeah, I think REZ is just still is an incredible game. I don’t think it’s aged at all. Pretty amazing. This is one of the games you can just go buy on an Oculus Quest 2 now. You know, you can put on a VR headset in 2022 and it’s like a new game you can buy. I agree. I think like what maybe, you know, I don’t have loads of Space Channel 5 experience, but maybe what puts it above is like there is this element of mastery to it. Like you say, it is very, very hard. And like it’s… Other than the first level, you will struggle to like 100% hit everything in a level. So maybe that does give it a little bit of longevity. And the visual style has helped it date really well. And there is something so perfectly like late 90s, early noughties, about being an antivirus thing, like embodied inside a computer. You know what I mean? And it’s that great… Is it Adam Freeland’s song, I think, from level three, maybe, called Fear, which has got that sample from Dune about Fear being the mind killer. That’s like, that’s cool to me. That’s the most Andy Kelly ass shit imaginable. Yeah, no, I like that. Did you play REZ Infinite at all, Andy? Did you play the new level they added for it? No, I don’t know, actually. I think I remember they did like a HD version of it before that, that I played, but yeah, I’ve not played the newest iteration of it yet. I might be too square for REZ. Anyway, it’s not that like out there, really though. Have you played it at all, Matthew? Yeah, but like the music isn’t necessarily what I’d listen to. It’s not Randy Newman, it’s very different. Though I would probably play that mod. How are you going to experience synesthesia if you don’t? That’s the thing. I’ve read so many things about synesthesia and I’m like, it sounds like bullshit to me because I haven’t experienced it. But have you experienced it? No. Isn’t it something some people just have and you can’t simulate it? Like midichlorians? I don’t know. I feel like he wants to evoke the feeling of it. Okay, he’s trying to convey his… He uses that word a lot. I think in Space Channel 5, if you read some of the making of stuff, he uses that word in promoting that as well. He’s been dining out on that one for a bit. Right. I would say that that’s the sort of thing that you can only get away with when you’re a Japanese game designer. I feel like anyone in the West said that, they’d be like, give it a rest, mate. Do you know what I mean? But it’s just different, I think, slightly different standards on that stuff when it’s been translated. I definitely felt with Tetris Effect, such a big audiovisual experience with the particle effects and the music and just the 4K-ness of it and the HDR-ness of it. It’s kind of supremely overwhelming in a very satisfying way. And I did wonder in that, like, oh, is this it? You’re just so completely enveloped by the muchness of something. The VR version of Tetris Effect where, I think particularly like the New York stage of it where there’s this jazzy music and it’s like New York at night. Like, that has such a powerful sense of place that I think VR is a really, really good fit for Misoguchi, for sure. That’s my favorite stage as well. Yeah, the New York one’s great, like musically. Some of them, like the music’s quite annoying, especially when you’re like struggling to keep on top of it. You’ve got this irritating sound in your ear. It’s a very mixed bag, that soundtrack, whereas I think all of REZ, I like musically. Yeah, I think like something I really wanted from Tetris Effect that maybe other people didn’t is like, I would kind of like it if it was, the whole game was themed after different cities around the world or something. So you feel like you’re plunged into a metropolis with its own musical style where you’re playing Tetris. Might have been more my sort of thing than we’re going to the funky desert now or whatever. Yeah, that’s a great idea. Come to Bath and they just make you listen to two minutes of this podcast. That would be great. Yeah, or Christian Rock Music in the Forum, something like that. So I think we’re on number two. Is that right, Andy? Number two is Resident Evil called Veronica. Of course. Is there something about Shinji Mikami just going to bat for consoles that finish last? Is that just the thing that he likes doing? I don’t know. Yeah, well, I mean, this is probably one of the best Resident Evil games, in my opinion. In my head, it’s kind of like the real Resident Evil 3. It’s such a continuation of Resi 2. And it feels like a real culmination of Resi 1 and 2, in terms of it brings Chris back and also reunites Chris with Claire. So that’s like a nice continuity there. But I think it actually began life as Resident Evil 3 before they went in a different direction with it, with all the Jill stuff and went back to Raccoon City. But I think I like this one because it leaves Raccoon City and the surrounding forest behind and it goes somewhere totally different. It goes to Rockfort Island, which is like a weird island in the sea near the Antarctica or something. It’s got a really gothic European feel to it, which is very different than the American City vibe of the other Resi games. So that’s a defining factor of it. I like that they got rid of pre-rendered backgrounds and went for… It’s still got static cameras, but the 3D backgrounds mean that the camera can be a lot more playful and sort of sweep around or lurk behind stuff. So they really up the game up with this cinematography of it. Do you have any fond memories of God Veronica? You know, it’s one I have never finished. But I do remember thinking that this was quite a good… Because people… I don’t know if you remember this Andy, but critics were really grousing at the time about the fact that Resi was stuck in this formula and that it should move on. And this felt like a good middle ground between that old formula and what would become Resi 4. I don’t know if you agree with that. Yeah, it does feel like a bit of connective tissue between the old games and Resi 4. In terms of structure, there’s fewer puzzles in it than some of the old games, but it’s still that thing of wandering around a creepy environment, sticking gems in statues’ heads and stuff. It’s got the pace and feel of old Resi, but some of the presentation is a bridge to what it would eventually become. The atmosphere has got a really particular atmosphere, I don’t think other Resi games have. It’s so of that game. It’s hard to describe, but it feels a certain way. When I play Code Veronica, it gives me a feeling that no other Resi does. There’s something quite distinctive about it. I’m not sure what that is, but it’s quite a unique feeling game. That’s another thing that it does that later Resi games would do, is that switch up in location. All of the games are from this one onwards, but they do just go beyond just being one city. This definitely establishes that. I feel like this is probably the most underliked game in terms of maybe it’s because it’s not as widely available as some of the other ones. It wasn’t as widely played because it was released on Dreamcast and later re-released on PS2. Maybe it fell between the cracks slightly. Matthew, I don’t know if you played this one. No, my experience of this one is it’s one of the campaigns in the second light gun game they did, the Dark Side Chronicles, which is Rezzy 2 and then this. And so, obviously, that’s a different representation of it. Quite silly fun. There’s a mad villain in this who’s sort of… I think he’s like split personality, dresses up as his sort of demented sister or something. Yeah, that’s Alfred and Alexis Ashford. Yeah, I like that. That felt like classic Rezzy fun of the kind I like. That’s the kind of tone I want from this series. But yeah, I’ve been meaning to go back and play this. It got re-released on 360 in some capacity, right? Yeah, I think it’s backwards compatible on modern platforms and everything. I think that might be the only place you can get it, though. I don’t think Andy, you know, you can play it somewhere else. It’s definitely not on PC, I don’t think. No, yeah, I think maybe like emulating it’s one of the best ways to play at the moment. Maybe the Dreamcast or Code Veronica X, which was the re-release, wasn’t it? But I think that a lot of Dreamcast games suffered from just not being easy to play. If you don’t have an expensive Dreamcast, you couldn’t play Code Veronica, which probably dampened its appeal. I think it’s not, yeah, like not too fondly remembered apart from me choosing it as my second all-time Dreamcast game. I don’t think you’re alone in that stuff. I know Joe Donnelly on PC Gamer was huge into this game. What do you think of Steve Burnside, though, Andy? He seems like the kind of character you would fucking hate. Yeah, I don’t like Steve Burnside. When he, spoiler, dies, I wasn’t that bothered, despite going through a large part of the gamism. I think they made him less annoying in that Umbrella Chronicles, like, retelling of the story. I’m pretty sure they dampened his whininess a bit. But, I mean, he’s not a great character. When Chris shows up, it’s sweet relief from having a hangout with Steve Burnside. Oh, that’s good. Yeah. I remember, like, in one magazine I read at the time, he was described as, like, looking like a Soho media knob, circa 2003 or something. It’s true he does have big Nathan Barley energy. So what’s your number one, Andy? I’m guessing, I know what it is, but still, I can’t wait to talk about it. Yeah. Well, number one by quite a margin, and probably one of my top three games of all time is Shenmue, original Shenmue. One of the most expensive game ever at the time, probably not even in the top thousand these days. But yeah, like, was this something you played at the time or did it come later? Yeah, this was one I played at the time. This was the, I mean, apart from Ready to Rumble luring me in with its real-time bruising tech, Shenmue was the game that I actually wanted to properly play. I vividly remember the first weekend where I got hold of that Dreamcast and Shenmue. And it really properly blew me away at the time in a way that is still kind of echoing now where I’m still writing articles about it, spurred on by that re-release that was released recently. But yeah, it’s still a game I replay at least once a year and it’s constantly lingering in my mind in some way. I suppose, what is it that’s distinctive about this one versus Shenmue 2, Andy? Is it the small town setting that you like in this one? Yeah, Shenmue 2 is great, but I mean, I think of how Rio would feel going to Hong Kong. He leaves his small, close-knit community in Yokosuka and he goes to a massive city and suddenly it feels a lot more anonymous. I love the feeling of community in the original Shenmue where every NPC, if you go up to someone on the street, they’ll know you because obviously you’re the kid that lives up the road. There’s that feeling of it’s a small area, but you run through it multiple times across in-game months and so you start seeing routines and you know that a certain character is going to be eating lunch here at this time or this person will be here at this time. The sense of place and community and feeling like you’re in a living space is really quite powerful. Even now, I wrote a thing recently about how it’s still impressive now, the simulation element of this little community where it has people follow routines and you feel like you’re a part of a group of people in a way you don’t in any other game. It’s really quite wild how much effort went into that. Even this backstory is written for every NPC. Some random guy walks down the street at 8 o’clock every night. He’s got a backstory which you can get through various means. There’s not one NPC in the game, it’s just a tomaton who walks back and forward. They go places or they go back to the house at the end of the night. It’s really wild when you think about that they were doing this back in the late 90s. Something I thought might appeal to you about this, Andy, is that it’s a little bit point and click game playing Shenmue. Do you think that’s fair to say in terms of how you interact with its world and its characters? Yeah, I think that’s why I like it. It’s like a detective game. To call back to the first episode I guessed on, I’d count it as a detective game because it’s really about following leads and walking around talking to people, getting a clue that will lead to another person, getting a bit of paper that’s written in Chinese, so you go to a Chinese restaurant and they translate it for you, and that leads to another thing. It is just a whole game of following a complicated tangle of leads to try and find the guy who killed your father, but interspersed with the odd fight. And the fights are used quite sparingly, which I like. You’re not constantly just punching people all the time. When a fight happens, there’s context for it, there’s a reason for it, there’s weight behind it. The character is often reluctant to do it as well. So I kind of like that about it. It’s mainly just thinking about existing in a lovely little Japanese town, going around talking to people and just being there, and it’s really slowly paced and the tone is really melancholy. I think it could be my perfect game in terms of tone and pacing and sense of place and world building, and I really can’t fault it. It’s quite incredible. It’s hard to think of anything else which has done this. I feel like so many games are set out to recreate the world or capture the world are kind of dealing with scale rather than minutiae maybe, and it’s just that focus means it never really dates. You know, it nailed the accuracy so well. Like no one else seems to be even trying to kind of mimic that level now. Yeah, like people compare the Yakuza games to Shenmue, and there are similarities, but the Yakuza is the complete opposite and the older people on the street are just, you know, set dressing and shop mannequins who walk back and forward. You know, I think Shenmue doesn’t get enough credit for the depth of how its community is simulated. A good tip, actually, is if you’re replaying it on the remasters, which are really good. If you play it with Japanese voice acting and English subtitles, it’s literally a different game. So with the credibly corny, inhuman, bizarre voice acting and English dub, it’s like notoriously… I mean, it has its own charm and it adds a certain flavor to it and it feels like it’s about a lot of people’s memories of Shenmue, but if you play it with Japanese audio, it’s all really low-key and quite muted and down-tempo and it totally transforms the mood of the game. It really heightens the melancholy bit of sweet feeling of it and it becomes even more sad and beautiful. Whereas if you play it with the crazy English voice acting and all these comical characters doing weird voices, it detracts from that a bit. So even if you’ve played it, replay it with Japanese audio and you’d be amazed at how it completely transforms the vibe of the game. It’s quite amazing how different it feels. I’ve only ever played Shenmue 2 with the English voice acting on Xbox. I don’t think Japanese was an option on there. Whereas I believe the Dreamcast one, when it launched in Europe, only had Japanese audio. Is that right, Andy? The Shenmue 2? Oh yeah, Shenmue 2, yeah. Yeah, that’s right. So yeah, I do admittedly think of it as a bit of a meme game sometimes. And yeah, probably if we’re not being particularly charitable, it does cheapen the great things that that game does in some ways. So yeah, I think detracting, saying detracts is completely fair. Did Shenmue 3 speak to you at all, Andy? How did you feel about that one? It was so clearly a game made for people like me. I sympathise with people who played it with no love for slash experience with the first two games, because he just made another Shenmue game, down to the meandering pace and the slightly offbeat style of writing and the plot that kind of ambles to nowhere. I loved it because it was made for me. It’s pure, a game just aimed at the Shenmue fans, but I can see why some people thought, what is this creaky old crap? Matthew, is this series ever going to cross your radar? It feels like something you would like. If I could have summoned the game into being in my living room, when I was a teenager, this would have been it. I remember being so envious of… I didn’t know anyone who had it. I didn’t have any friends with the Dreamcast. But I remember reading about it in Gamesmaster and thinking it was just everything. I’ve said this on the podcast before, but when they pointed out in previews that you could open every drawer in the house and there was stuff in them, and you could maybe find games or music or trinkets or whatever, or you could go and use Gashapon machines and all this kind of stuff. And just thinking, well, they’ve done it, haven’t they? It’s like the entire world. They’ve built the entire world in a game, like a game where you can open every drawer in a house. I couldn’t imagine something better than that. And I just didn’t have the money to get a Dreamcast. Like it just wasn’t on the cards. And I only played it when it got remastered. Yeah, I played it on Tox One. So, yeah, it took years and years to get there. And, you know, I opened those drawers and thought, yeah, that’s good. I mean, that would have blown my, whatever, 15-year-old mind. Now I’m like, you know, I’ve seen a lot. But it has, you’re right, like tonally, it fits into so many things I like. Like, it’s obviously a very different game in terms of, like, scale and gameplay systems. But I think there’s a lot of Shenmue’s energy in, like, Hotel Dusk and sin games. Everyday people, where the highest moment of drama actually isn’t really anything at all, but in the context of quite a low-key adventure, everything becomes very meaningful. I think is probably the thing that kind of resonates with me and connects with me. And, yeah, I enjoyed 3 as well. I thought 3 was fine. That was decent. But, yeah, I wish I had been there back in the day because I just couldn’t believe it, like, that such a thing existed. Great game to read about in games magazines, this. Like, that’s, yeah, that was, like, a big part of the fun of, like, it was like a grand folly. It kind of encompasses what the Dreamcast is in so many ways, you know, just, like, underselling, over, you know, overly expensive and ridiculously ambitious ahead of its time. It’s like the console and the game that’s playing on the console in sync, you know. There was one last thing I wanted to ask you about, Andy, and that was, like, I saw you tweet once about, is there a moment in this game where your friend leaves and, like, you found that particularly emotionally devastating? I just remember you tweeting, like, a Garth Marangi image along with it, but I kind of wanted to probe this moment because it seems like a moment that really spoke to you in the story. So, like, what was that all about? Yeah, well, it’s because it’s a game where you live a life of a Japanese teenager day to day, and every day you meet people on the street, and one of them is your mate who runs a hot dog stand, a Jamaican guy called Tom, who’s living in Japan for some reason. And so you speak to him every day, and, like, a bunch of times he helps you out, and he, you know, he’s, like, one of your mates. And so you spend, you know, maybe 15 hours just hanging out with this guy, and him being really nice to you, and then he flies back to America for some reason. I’m not sure why, but it’s just a really sad moment where Rio stands on a harbour and watches the plane fly away, and he goes, my friend, Tom. It’s just such a, like, devastating moment, because you’ve… I think that when he leaves Japan at the end, it hits extra hard because you’ve spent ages just living his life and getting to know his, you know, neighborhood and talking to people, and people really care for him, and he’s on this blinkered quest for revenge, which is really quite… Like, people are constantly saying, stop this, stop chasing this crime boss around the world, you know. He’ll just kill you. And he’s completely blinded by his desire just to go wherever he is, and, like, there’s an extra poignancy to that as well, where he’s, like, gone on this damn fool crusade, and everyone around him that loves him is like, what are you doing? This is crazy. But, like, yeah, that moment hits, that hits hard. I’m getting emotional thinking about it. Yeah, yeah, like, I don’t laugh because it’s, you know, because it’s ridiculous. I think it’s, like, a really good use of, like, an in-game time mechanic, as Shenmue does. Like, if the idea is that time is moving on and that there is permanent change as a result of that, what a great, you know, in, like, 1999 or 2000, what a great use of a mechanic to tell that story, you know? There’s some great stuff for the time. If you muck about for, if you really go out of your way to not chase leads and get the, you know, progress the story, the time, the in-game clock can go as far as April 1987 or whatever it is, like the next year. So you can go all the way through Christmas, through January, February, March and get to April. If you mess around for that amount of time, the bad guy, Landy, he just comes back and just kills you. That’s it. That’s the end. Like, it’s the most depressing ending. You’re like, he probably gets wind that there’s some kid going around asking questions about him, so he just comes back to the dojo and just murders you, and that’s it, game over. But you really have to mess around on an incredible scale to make it to April without reaching the end. Yeah, yeah. This guy’s been, like, eating hot dogs and chatting to people about their day for, like, a year and occasionally mentioning you. Yeah, that’s great stuff, Andy. That’s awesome to hear you talk about that. Yeah, that’s really, really cool. Well, we come to the end of the episode. Thank you so much, Andy, for coming on and talking about your book and about the Dreamcast. It’s really, really great to have you. So it’s a perfect organism, the book, right? Yep, that’s right. Yeah, if you go on my Twitter, at Ultra Brilliant, the pinned post, there’s a link where you can go and pre-order a copy and help get it made. This podcast is supported by patreon.com/backpagepod, where we do two exclusive podcasts a month for people who sign up to the Excel tier. If you’d like to support us, you can go there. Matthew, where can people find you on social media? MrBazzle underscore Pesto. I’m Samuel W. Roberts. Thanks for listening. We’ll be back next week. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye. If I’m coughing a lot, by the way, it’s because I’ve got a lingering COVID cough. Even though I’m negative and recovered, I’ve just got this weird little ratty cough that won’t go. I can edit around it. If I have a lingering cough, it’s because I wolfed down a pork dinner before this recording, and it’s just repeating on me slightly. But pork dinner, that’s so Greek. Not a great combination of words, is it? All right, cool. Cool.